Stator check ????

[liduno]

Picked up a non running Chinese 250 coolsterbuggy the other day.

It has no spark and it looks like the previous owner put on a new coil and cdi box, my first guess was the magnetic pickup or the stator.

I checked the stator for a short and found no continuity to ground on all 3 wires. I did a quick resistance check between all 3 wires and all 3 showed the same resistance .
5.2 If I remember correctly.

I would have said the stator is good at this point, except when I check for voltage when cranking the motor over I get nothing.

I would've expected 20 to 40 v AC while cranking the motor over. My question is am I missing some thing here? All tests show a good stator but no voltage.

Pic for the hell of it..lol

[liduno]

Thought of another test. Although there was no continuity between the stator wires and ground, there was continuity between the 3 stator wires.

I think that's an internal short in the stator. Can anyone confirm my suspicions?

[x-bird]

continuity should be between all 3 wires, no continuity from wires to ground. sounds like the stator is ok.

I think you need to be looking at harness wiring, grounds and kill/safety/ign switch.
starter cranks and no spark is usually a faulty kill switch

[liduno]

Originally Posted by x-bird

continuity should be between all 3 wires, no continuity from wires to ground. sounds like the stator is ok.

I think you need to be looking at harness wiring, grounds and kill/safety/ign switch.
starter cranks and no spark is usually a faulty kill switch

Ok now I'm confused..lol I thought that the stator should make voltage independent of all other components? I have the stator unplugged from everything and when I turn the motor over using the starter motor I get no voltage from any of the 3 wires coming from the stator. I don't see how that would have anything to do with any switch? Is my thinking wrong here?

[zman007007]

I would think either the stator or the pick up is bad.

[zman007007]

I believe xbird was thinking you had it all plugged up to the harness.

[liduno]

Could either one of you do a quick voltage check on your stator? Just to see if I'm right about what I should be seeing? No problem if you don't want to, I get that someone might not want to mess with a perfectly working stator..lol

But if you aint scared I would appreciate it. With the stator completely unplugged from everything you should see 20v to 40v AC from each wire.

So with you voltmeter set to 200 ACV you would ground one lead and hold the other lead to 1 of the stator wires while cranking or running the motor. Repeat test on each of the 3 stator wires.

[SYCARMS]

What voltage are you checking the stator with. The stator should produce an AC current. The voltage regulator/rectifier converts the current to DC. However the stator current is only for charging purposes. If you have no spark it would be in the trigger switch or also reg./rec. This is assuming the cdi and coil are good and the proper voltage cdi was used. Check that you have 50-250 ohms checking the exciter wire to the green wire. Ignition pulse generator wires should read 50-170 ohms. Ignition coil should be : Primary 0.1-0.3 ohms and secondary with plug cap 7.7-11 killo ohms, without plug cap 3.7-4.5 kilo ohms

[liduno]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

What voltage are you checking the stator with. The stator should produce an AC current. The voltage regulator/rectifier converts the current to DC. However the stator current is only for charging purposes. If you have no spark it would be in the trigger switch or also reg./rec. This is assuming the cdi and coil are good and the proper voltage cdi was used. Check that you have 50-250 ohms checking the exciter wire to the green wire. Ignition pulse generator wires should read 50-170 ohms. Ignition coil should be : Primary 0.1-0.3 ohms and secondary with plug cap 7.7-11 killo ohms, without plug cap 3.7-4.5 kilo ohms

Just so I'm clear, you're saying even if my stator was bad I should still be able to get spark assuming everything else was good? And yes I was checking for AC volts at the 3 stator wires.

And when you say trigger switch you mean the magnetic pickup?

If I understand what you're saying I think my stator and my magnetic pickup are both bad.

[liduno]

With the meter set at 200, the magnetic pickup reads 110 ohms when measured at the 2 wires coming out of the pickup.

With the meter set at 200, all 3 stator wires read 2.6 between each other.

With the meter set to 200AC V it reads 0 at all 3 stator wire with 1 lead on ground while cranking the motor over with the starter.

All 3 wires from the stator have continuity between them.

[SYCARMS]

The Honda manual does not give any voltage readings, everything is in ohms. I don't know what output would be at cranking speed. I believe rpm,s have to be at certain speed for the field to excite before producing current for charging but the exciter coil should produce some voltage probably very low and I believe it to be ac but some of the 250 stators were dc so you would have a dc current in that case but some current should be produced by the exciter coil which would be the one larger coil on the stator and is usually insulated unlike the others with exposed copper windings. The exciter is what puts power to the Ign. side of cdi. My guess is they check these units measuring ohms instead of volts since you can have voltage but if too little or too much resistance is present it may not produce the voltage. Your magnetic pickup you say reads 110 ohms which is within the range of 50-170 ohms Usually the exciter wire is black with a red trace. Use RX1 to check this wire.

[liduno]

No defined exciter coil on this stator. I have an old Yamaha stator that has a separate insulated exciter coil but not on this one. All 3 wires from the stator are yellow. The 2 wires from the magnetic pickup are white/white and red.

You have me doubting my initial diagnoses..lol

[liduno]

I just looked up a honda helix manual since this is a knock off of that motor. The manual says the stator wires should be between 0.0 and 1.0 Mine is 2.6

[x-bird]

Originally Posted by zman007007

I believe xbird was thinking you had it all plugged up to the harness.

correct ....

which is where i would revert back to in this situation. hook it all up and begin to trace back from the spark plug, to the coil terminals and keep following it all back. like tom basically notes, the stator isn't firing the plug or supplying voltage to do that. the pickup (as i call it) sends the signal to the cdi to fire it. if some part of the harness has the circuit grounded out as if a kill switch was pushed in, it'll crank and not fire the plug. I'd start searching for 12 volts on the positive run to the plug. could be a bad coil even new ...

[liduno]

Both the pickup and the stator failed voltage test but the pickup past the ohm test.

I'm gonna see if the local chinese scooter shop has a stator and a pickup so I don't have to order it.

If they don't have the parts in stock where do you guys get your parts? I used gopowersports for my hammerhead but they don't list crap for the 250.

[SYCARMS]

I should have both in stock

[SYCARMS]

You should also check any kill switch first then check the ign. switch making sure that when the switch is turned to ignition you have 12v at the cdi. I have seen many times these switches will work just fine in the start position but is not supplying power to the cdi with switch in the on position.

[liduno]

I'm sorry SYCARMS, I didn't realize you were a vendor and I just ordered everything off e-bay.

I feel like an idiot, after all your help and I buy it somewhere else.

First time I ever used e-bay too.

[x-bird]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

You should also check any kill switch first then check the ign. switch making sure that when the switch is turned to ignition you have 12v at the cdi. I have seen many times these switches will work just fine in the start position but is not supplying power to the cdi with switch in the on position.

Ding! ... i give this 5 to 1 odds as being the issue for no spark ...

[liduno]

Cmon guys you act like I haven't been listening..lol

I know the stator is bad and the pickup is only 13 bucks.

[liduno]

New stator and pickup coil came in today. WE HAVE SPARK!!! WOOO HOOOO...lol

[SYCARMS]

Good deal

[liduno]

OK I got it running on the trailer, jacked the rear wheels up and saw the wheels turn. Problem is it wont turn off..lol

I have to pull the plug on the CDI to kill it.

I have all 3 wires on the ignition switch disconnected and the 2 wires from the kill switch touching but it still runs????

[Numbers]

Originally Posted by liduno

OK I got it running on the trailer, jacked the rear wheels up and saw the wheels turn. Problem is it wont turn off..lol

I have to pull the plug on the CDI to kill it.

I have all 3 wires on the ignition switch disconnected and the 2 wires from the kill switch touching but it still runs????

Two wires from my kill switch not touching usually equals stop. Mine is wired directly from the trigger ( CDI to Stator ) which effectively kills the motor when I open the switch. No trigger, no run.

However, without knowing if for instance one of your kill switch wires runs through or is connected somewhere else before or after it makes it back to the CDI, I just simply don't know.

You might be able to just simply wire a connection similar to my idea above if you can't figure out the issue.

[liduno]

My kill switch is supposed to ground out the cdi. My ignition is supposed to break a circuit. Neither is doing what it should..lol

I Should be able to kill the engine with either the key or the kill switch.

[Numbers]

Are you currently starting it by jumping the solenoid ? Some of the wiring diagrams I have seen, show a " kill wire " coming from the CDI to a KILL dash switch and on to the ignition switch. There is a ground from the kill switch also. So, three wires (2 for the kill wire and one for the ground wire ) at the kill switch. You sound as if you have two ? Do any of your wires from the kill switch go on to the ignition switch and if so will keeping your ignition switch disconnected prevent the buggy from shutting off ?

[liduno]

Originally Posted by Numbers

Are you currently starting it by jumping the solenoid ? Some of the wiring diagrams I have seen, show a " kill wire " coming from the CDI to a KILL dash switch and on to the ignition switch. There is a ground from the kill switch also. So, three wires (2 for the kill wire and one for the ground wire ) at the kill switch. You sound as if you have two ? Do any of your wires from the kill switch go on to the ignition switch and if so will keeping your ignition switch disconnected prevent the buggy from shutting off ?

I just asked someone that same question..lol

I'm not jumping the solenoid and yes there is a kill wire to my cdi.

I have a keyed ignition switch, and a kill switch.

3 wires to the ignition, 2 to the kill.

None connect from one switch to the other directly. That's not to say in some convoluted route through the harness they don't somehow connect..lol

I'm going out to take a look and investigate the possibility that having the switch disconnected might be the problem.

[Numbers]

Sounds like a plan. Keep us updated. The one reason besides seeing them wired that way in diagrams, the other was that you said " I Should be able to kill the engine with either the key or the kill switch. "

[liduno]

I'm scared to hook it back up and start it..lol

I don't want to kill my new stuff. I did however check to see if there was continuity between the kill switch wires and the ignition switch wires, there was none.

Theoretically the 2 wires at the kill switch should ground the cdi and stop the engine from running.

The green wire at the kill switch has continuity to ground, and the black/white wire at the kill switch has continuity to the black/white wire at the kill circuit on the cdi.

Touching the 2 together is essentially grounding the kill circuit at the cdi. But the engine still runs...

[Numbers]

In other words you have not hooked up the ignition switch ?

[liduno]

I didn't but I had the 3 wires together to start it then I removed the starter wire and left the other 2 together. That is exactly how the ignition switch works so it shouldn't make a difference. The ignition switch doesn't ever go to ground, I checked.

[Numbers]

That's how it should function but what you're describing does not sound possible. If your kill wire checks out from switch to CDI and your ground is good and your switch is functioning properly all should be good right ? Something seems to be missing and it may be one of those issues where a second set of eyes on the issue would help.

Only other suggestion would be to wire a pseudo kill switch as described above.

[liduno]

I could easily make a kill switch to turn it off but I am worried that what is keeping it running will damage my stator and pickup coil again.

I'm starting to suspect the starter solenoid. It seems to be feeding the battery voltage to the cdi no matter what any of the switches or bypasses are doing.

[liduno]

........

[Numbers]

Don't see how it's possible to feeding anything from the starter solenoid to the CDI directly unless you have a wire or two shorted out or a miswired connection.

However, to alleviate your concern over the solenoid. Remove it from the system.

To start the engine run a heavy gauge wire from the positive terminal of your battery to your starter TEMPORARILY TOUCHING THE STARTER LUG. Once started RELEASE the wire. Check your kill switch now and see if its working... IF its still not working your solenoid should not be an issue with what you are describing.

What typically feeds voltage to the CDI should be coming from the stator to the #6 position wire on the CDI unless you have a setup I have not ran across.

For instance, the wire on my #6 position on the CDI is a black wire with a red stripe fed directly from the stator.

[liduno]

My stator only has 3 yellow wires and they all go to my regulator rectifier.

[liduno]

Trying to figure out if I can bypass the starter solenoid. My starter solenoid has the 2 big wires, 1 from the battery and 1 to the starter then it has a 4 port plug but there are only 3 little wires in the 4 port plug.

There is a green which is ground. There is a red which is battery voltage. There is red/yellow that is a trigger for the starter from the ignition switch. The red/yellow also happens to go through the brake safety switch which is bypassed.

[liduno]

Looks like a kawi solenoid

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/5...pg_220x220.jpg

[liduno]

Just tried to bypass the solenoid. I put the wires for the ignition switch together and it didn't power up the cdi.

[Numbers]

Ok. The starter solenoid is a relay. When one side is energized it closes the other side to pass the voltage/current through the wire. In this case down to the starter. What your third little wire going in to your connector is I'm not sure.

1. Green is ground. Check
2. Red/Yellow is what tells that relay to close as you mention above. Check
3. Red battery voltage to your relay would effectively shut your relay constantly and your starter motor would never stop trying to turn over until your battery juice was effectively depleted or the something burned up. That doesn't sound like what you are describing. Correct me if I misunderstood you.

[Numbers]

Originally Posted by Numbers

... the wire on my #6 position on the CDI is a black wire with a red stripe fed directly from the stator.

This is what powers up your CDI directly. Battery or solenoid voltage / current should not be directly connected.

[liduno]

Originally Posted by Numbers

Ok. The starter solenoid is a relay. When one side is energized it closes the other side to pass the voltage/current through the wire. In this case down to the starter. What your third little wire going in to your connector is I'm not sure.

1. Green is ground. Check
2. Red/Yellow is what tells that relay to close as you mention above. Check
3. Red battery voltage to your relay would effectively shut your relay constantly and your starter motor would never stop trying to turn over until your battery juice was effectively depleted or the something burned up. That doesn't sound like what you are describing. Correct me if I misunderstood you.

Calling it a relay is making me think of it differently..lol You're correct, it is a solenoid and a relay. Give me a minute to process.

[liduno]

Originally Posted by Numbers

Ok. The starter solenoid is a relay. When one side is energized it closes the other side to pass the voltage/current through the wire. In this case down to the starter. What your third little wire going in to your connector is I'm not sure.

1. Green is ground. Check
2. Red/Yellow is what tells that relay to close as you mention above. Check
3. Red battery voltage to your relay would effectively shut your relay constantly and your starter motor would never stop trying to turn over until your battery juice was effectively depleted or the something burned up. That doesn't sound like what you are describing. Correct me if I misunderstood you.

A relay does usually have a constant power source that is tapped when signaled. So it would seem that the little red wire is the power source to the relay fed by the big red wire from the battery. When the 4 port plug is removed from the solenoid/relay there is no power at the 4 port plug but there is power at the solenoid/relay.

[Numbers]

Originally Posted by liduno

Calling it a relay is making me think of it differently..lol You're correct, it is a solenoid and a relay. Give me a minute to process.

It is and it's not all in the same sense. For purposes of Chinese manufacturing it seems to be ok to call it a relay...

[liduno]

My brain hurts...lol Time to make a sammich.

Glad you posted up man, it helps to have someone coming up with ideas when you feel like you're out of them

[Numbers]

Now a relay could be more than say 4 prongs but should only has one constant source of voltage. What does your little red wire have for voltage before cranking, during cranking, and after engine is up and running ? Got me curious now.

[Numbers]

Go eat. It's good to bounce ideas but eating and other things take precedence, I understand.

[liduno]

Originally Posted by Numbers

Now a relay could be more than say 4 prongs but should only has one constant source of voltage. What does your little red wire have for voltage before cranking, during cranking, and after engine is up and running ? Got me curious now.

I will let you know tomorrow Thanks again for your help.

[Numbers]

No problem. I'll be around.

[SYCARMS]

Does the start solenoid have a fuse on it?

[liduno]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

Does the start solenoid have a fuse on it?

Yes. I believe the solenoid itself is just a normal solenoid and the 4 prong part with the fuse slides on over the two main studs.
Looks like a kawi solenoid.
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/kawasaki-bayou-220-solenoid

[SYCARMS]

That fuse protects the ign. system. If the solenoid is bypassed you will have no power to cdi which is why you lost spark after disconnecting. The solenoid should have nothing to do with shutting down the engine. On most buggies the blk./wht. wire is put to ground killing the engine either by kill switch or ign. switch. I think I have a wiring schematic for my coolster single seat which should be the same as the double. I'll try to find it today.

[liduno]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

That fuse protects the ign. system. If the solenoid is bypassed you will have no power to cdi which is why you lost spark after disconnecting. The solenoid should have nothing to do with shutting down the engine. On most buggies the blk./wht. wire is put to ground killing the engine either by kill switch or ign. switch. I think I have a wiring schematic for my coolster single seat which should be the same as the double. I'll try to find it today.

That would be awesome, mine is a single seat and for the life of me I can not find a wiring diagram for it.

[liduno]

Took it for 30 second run around the yard. HOLY STIFF SUSPENSION!!!!!!

Gonna have to do something about the shocks on this thing.

Got it working with the key starts and stops..WooHoo..lol

The power port on the cdi was wired to constant power so I hooked it up to the wire coming from the ignition switch.

[Numbers]

Originally Posted by liduno

Took it for 30 second run around the yard. HOLY STIFF SUSPENSION!!!!!!

Gonna have to do something about the shocks on this thing.

Got it working with the key starts and stops..WooHoo..lol

The power port on the cdi was wired to constant power so I hooked it up to the wire coming from the ignition switch.

It's colder than a... here, I can't get much done without frost bite. It's good to hear it's running now and stopping. Out of curiosity, besides the CDI and ignition, where does that wire go ?

[liduno]

It's the return wire from the ignition switch, it has power when the key is on. It's basically the wire that powers all the accessories.

I talked to a scooter master about the positive reading from the ground ports on the cdi. He says the positive reading on the ground side of the cdi is normal when it has power to the power port and nothing plugged into the ground ports. Once you plug in the ground plug the reading is normal as to ground.

[SYCARMS]

Glad you got it running. Do you still need the schematic? If so email me tom@sycpowersports.com , I'll have to scan it and e-mail it to you.

[liduno]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

Glad you got it running. Do you still need the schematic? If so email me tom@sycpowersports.com , I'll have to scan it and e-mail it to you.

That would be awesome, thanks.

[liduno]

Got a set of front shocks off a Honda fourtrax 300 4x4. I put them on the rear of the buggy, best 25 bucks I ever spent..lol Now I need another set for the front.

I took it for a little beat run across the street behind the sears, it ran good for a for about 5 minutes. Coincidentally that's about how long it takes for the automatic choke to fully turn off[Wax style enrichment]

After a wide open run from one end of the lot to the next, it bogged down and would only idle. Any throttle input resulted in a big bog, and I noticed the header glowing red.

I suspect it needs to have the carb cleaned, luckily they are super simple carbs.

[SYCARMS]

Make sure your exhaust is not plugged up. If buggy has been sitting for long I have seen mouse nests, recluse nests which are very thick and strong, or dobber nests.

[SYCARMS]

If you have a vacuum gauge, connect it to the intake and with engine running at operating temp observe the vacuum. Should fluctuate between 14 & 17 being its a single cylinder it won't be steady. Crack the throttle and observe the gauge, vacuum should drop to 0. If vacuum does not drop the exhaust is restricted.

[liduno]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

Make sure your exhaust is not plugged up. If buggy has been sitting for long I have seen mouse nests, recluse nests which are very thick and strong, or dobber nests.

I've seen mice shoot out of a tail pipe on an old 440 charger my uncle had..lol And the mud dobbers! I've had them throw an electric cooling fan so far out of balance that when the fan came on it tried to climb out of the car..lol

[liduno]

Stumped again..lol

With the carb cleaned and the valves adjusted it starts and idles like a Cadillac, hot or cold. Problem is it still wont rev. Throttle response is amazing at low rpm's.

I took a squirt bottle of water to the intake and all the hoses, hell I soaked the whole carb to no avail.

I hooked my little hand held vacuum pump and hit the gas. The needle went to 0. I couldn't get a good reading on vacuum at idle because it's not a liquid filled gauge.

It's a 30mm keihin carb, the float level is at 18mm, has a 132 main jet. I forget but I think the idle jet was a 38. The slide needle didn't seem to be adjustable so it is where ever it comes from the factory.

[Numbers]

This sounds like a Rubik's cube. Just when you think you have it beat, another issue rears it's ugly head. I am stumped too. For now I'll just sit back and enjoy the show...

[liduno]

Originally Posted by Numbers

This sounds like a Rubik's cube. Just when you think you have it beat, another issue rears it's ugly head. I am stumped too. For now I'll just sit back and enjoy the show...

No you tell me whats wrong with it now









I kid I kid

[Numbers]

Originally Posted by liduno

No you tell me whats wrong with it now

I kid I kid

Owner / Operator ???



In all seriousness I have no clue personally. However, after a little research and the infamous Google search engine, I have found pretty much what has already been stated on the issue. One additional thing I am curious about is how your fuel and vacuum lines run on your buggy as it sits now and how the manual says there supposed to run.

[liduno]

Originally Posted by Numbers

Owner / Operator ???

Well played sir Well played..lol

Originally Posted by Numbers

In all seriousness I have no clue personally. However, after a little research and the infamous Google search engine, I have found pretty much what has already been stated on the issue. One additional thing I am curious about is how your fuel and vacuum lines run on your buggy as it sits now and how the manual says there supposed to run.

I don't have a manual for it, but it's pretty straight forward. Gravity feed tank, vacuum operated slide and accelerator pump.

[Numbers]

I betcha SYCARMS has one....

[liduno]

The manuals I found online for it are very basic. Mostly safety warnings and very basic info.

[Numbers]

Here's the only manual I could find... Right click the following link and save ( SAVE TARGET AS... ) somewhere on your computer where you can find it.

http://manuals.monsterscooterparts.c...250-manual.pdf

Includes a few diagrams and some servicing instructions.

10.7 MB (11,249,913 bytes)

[liduno]

The one you emailed me is a winner I have looked at sooooo many and none were right . You da man

[OLDKID]

I'VE HAD TWO SPIDERBOX'S WITH THE SAME CARB THAT WOULD START AND IDLE FINE , AND REV UP-ONLY ON JACKSTANDS , WOULD SPUTTER AND DIE UNDER LOAD . THE MAIN NEEDLE HAS NO ADJUSTMENT PROVISION , SO AS AN EXPERAMENT I REMOVED NEEDLE FROM HOLDER AND INSTALLED THREE TINY WASHERS UNDER HEAD OF NEEDLE TO RAISE IT - FATTER RICHER MIXTURE , THEY BOTH RAN PERFECT AFTER THAT, SO I LEFT THEM THAT WAY AND RODE THEM FOR TWO YEARS TILL I SOLD THEM . TRIED ONE TWO AND THREE WASHER COMBINATIONS . WHAT I USED AS WASHERS WERE ACTUALLY TINY CRIMP ON EYELETS I JUST SNIPPED OFF WITH SIDE CUTTERS . MY KING COBRA 150 WOULD SPUTTER AT HIGH RPM , THAT TOOK ONE WASHER RUNS EXCELLENT NOW - REDNECK TECH.

[liduno]

Originally Posted by OLDKID

I'VE HAD TWO SPIDERBOX'S WITH THE SAME CARB THAT WOULD START AND IDLE FINE , AND REV UP-ONLY ON JACKSTANDS , WOULD SPUTTER AND DIE UNDER LOAD . THE MAIN NEEDLE HAS NO ADJUSTMENT PROVISION , SO AS AN EXPERAMENT I REMOVED NEEDLE FROM HOLDER AND INSTALLED THREE TINY WASHERS UNDER HEAD OF NEEDLE TO RAISE IT - FATTER RICHER MIXTURE , THEY BOTH RAN PERFECT AFTER THAT, SO I LEFT THEM THAT WAY AND RODE THEM FOR TWO YEARS TILL I SOLD THEM . TRIED ONE TWO AND THREE WASHER COMBINATIONS . WHAT I USED AS WASHERS WERE ACTUALLY TINY CRIMP ON EYELETS I JUST SNIPPED OFF WITH SIDE CUTTERS . MY KING COBRA 150 WOULD SPUTTER AT HIGH RPM , THAT TOOK ONE WASHER RUNS EXCELLENT NOW - REDNECK TECH.

I will give it a shot. At this point I'm almost willing to try anything..lol

[liduno]

I drilled the jet out a little more and got it to run half way decent with the airbox installed. I still have to go bigger on the main jet, the pipe still glows red and I still get backfiring after a long WOT run and the plug is white.

Of course the drill bits I need are the ones I broke and never replaced..Isn't that always the way..

[SYCARMS]

What size jet are you running right now?

[liduno]

I not sure anymore...lol I had a little plastic bag of drill bits that were somewhere in between where I was and where I wanted to be. Running pretty good now. My guess is somewhere around 138

The thing is, it didn't make any damn sense...
Normally you would think a motor that bogs with the air box installed but runs good with no air box would be jetted too high. Not the case here, I had to go up to get it to run good with the air box on.