Ummmm, how on earth?!?!

[joshstep1]

So, yesterday I was getting the stock parts back on the buggy and I noticed something really weird; the slider weights in the variator were melted! How on earth did it get hot enough in the variator to melt the dang weights?

[booda72]

wow!!!!!

[joshstep1]

Yeah, I think that might be an understatement though.

[olderthan]

belt slipping maybe

[kjj325]

Ive never seen them melt before, but that got really really hot.

Im guessing your belt is slipping too?

[joshstep1]

I can imagine the belt was slipping... hence all of the heat, but why was the belt slipping in the first place?

[kjj325]

Originally Posted by joshstep1

I can imagine the belt was slipping... hence all of the heat, but why was the belt slipping in the first place?

I would assume you are running a higher RPM then stock?
If so you are spinning the clutch faster, thus making more heat. Holding it wide open that long probably helped with heat build up and I am sure the extra load of the snow/slush contributed as well.

There is just so many possibilities.

[joshstep1]

Yeah, I am running at higher RPMs, but I took this thing to turkey bay and ran for 3 straight hours and had no problem.

[kjj325]

Originally Posted by joshstep1

Yeah, I am running at higher RPMs, but I took this thing to turkey bay and ran for 3 straight hours and had no problem.

Things wear out after time. I am sure if your running it this way its going to wear out faster.

I would say the it was just its time

[joshstep1]

But it's only got 200 something miles on it. Your tranny should not fry at 200 miles

[kjj325]

Originally Posted by joshstep1

But it's only got 200 something miles on it. Your tranny should not fry at 200 miles

Thats not your transmission. Your transmission is what your driven pulley is on.

I would say with the extra RPMs, Added drag, and how long it sat at that RPM is what did it in. It might not do it every time, but doing this over and over and over will take it toll on a clutch that was made to with stand stock conditions.

I could be wrong but I am not sure what else could have done it.


The joys of modding

[joshstep1]

The driven pulley? Are you talking about the belt?

[kjj325]

Originally Posted by joshstep1

The driven pulley? Are you talking about the belt?

That is the pulley that goes on the transmissions intake shaft....Its the pulley towards the back

[joshstep1]

Ohhhh, but the belt area is called a CVT. Right?

[kjj325]

Originally Posted by joshstep1

Ohhhh, but the belt area is called a CVT. Right?

Some people call the entire set up a CVT clutch system.

I go by Driver Pulley (the one on the engine), Driven Pulley (the one on the transmission) and the belt.

[joshstep1]

Ok then, but it's short for "Continually variable transmission" and as I believe a transmissions job is to change the gear ratios, which is what this does. Right?

[kjj325]

Originally Posted by joshstep1

Ok then, but it's short for "Continually variable transmission" and as I believe a transmissions job is to change the gear ratios, which is what this does. Right?

Your Right, but its wrong lol.

For some reason they consider it as a pulley system.

Hard to explain lol

[joshstep1]

Ummmmm..... ok then

[olderthan]

josh
was that your original belt?
i keep two spares and put on a new one when i do any mods
we fried the variators on my sons oddessy when he was little due
to a wore belt-i will only run a belt a year max

[joshstep1]

Yes, the belt was the same one that came with it, but I've only had the buggy since October 09

[olderthan]

remember to replace the belt any time you do a mod
and you will last longer but as we soup up the little buggys
parts are moving faster and expect wear

[joshstep1]

Alright, that just made things more expensive...

[ckau]

Their not melted, they are graphite so they can take the heat. they are worn out way past replacement. When was the last time you replaced the rollers? They don't have a very long life span Inspect them often. once they get a flat spot on them it's time for a fresh set. chances are you have worn the variator ramps out too.

[joshstep1]

Those were slider weights which have a plastic casing around them, which isn't there... anymore. They weren't roller weights, and the only had maybe 100 miles on them

[BuggyMaster]

I was just getting ready to tell you those are rollers....those started out as sliders????

[24evanwilson]

holy yfchchv i have never seen such a thing........................but did you get the stock rollers back??

[ckau]

Those are sliders?? jeez, I have never, ever seen a set do that! The sliders I have used had octagon shaped inner weights. Where did you get them? I don't think I would use that brand anymore if the housing is plastic. Did they eat up the ramps in your variator?

At any rate, you definitely got your use out of them! 100 miles is usually past the life span of sliders or rollers in a buggy. In a street scooter, yes you can get high mileage out of a set, they can last quite a while but with the off road demands of a buggy, they go quick! The tremendous strain on the cvt and the constant up down shifting wears them down fast. When we compete, I figure 3 or 4 sets of rollers for one weekend depending on what we are doing.

I never got the same performance out of sliders that I got from rollers. They wouldn't shift as high as rollers [top speed].and wouldn't down shift as fast either. I have my own measured 1/10th mile oval banked test track so we spent a lot of time testing different weights and brands of rollers and sliders to find the perfect combo. You have to go up a gram or two in slider weight to get the same effect of a roller of a particular weight. 11/12 gram sliders equal 10 gram rollers.

Imo, I know a lot who swear by the sliders but I know some of them were replacing worn out rollers with fresh sliders so anything would seem like a big improvement! There is no real right or wrong. It boils down to your particular preference and driving style.

[joshstep1]

Originally Posted by BuggyMaster

I was just getting ready to tell you those are rollers....those started out as sliders????

Amazingly enough, yes, those WERE sliders... How did they melt!!!!

[joshstep1]

Originally Posted by 24evanwilson

holy yfchchv i have never seen such a thing........................but did you get the stock rollers back??

Yeah, I have to stock 13g rollers but I think I'll buy some 11g sliders.

[joshstep1]

Originally Posted by ckau

Those are sliders?? jeez, I have never, ever seen a set do that! The sliders I have used had octagon shaped inner weights. Where did you get them? I don't think I would use that brand anymore if the housing is plastic. Did they eat up the ramps in your variator?

At any rate, you definitely got your use out of them! 100 miles is usually past the life span of sliders or rollers in a buggy. In a street scooter, yes you can get high mileage out of a set, they can last quite a while but with the off road demands of a buggy, they go quick! The tremendous strain on the cvt and the constant up down shifting wears them down fast. When we compete, I figure 3 or 4 sets of rollers for one weekend depending on what we are doing.

I never got the same performance out of sliders that I got from rollers. They wouldn't shift as high as rollers [top speed].and wouldn't down shift as fast either. I have my own measured 1/10th mile oval banked test track so we spent a lot of time testing different weights and brands of rollers and sliders to find the perfect combo. You have to go up a gram or two in slider weight to get the same effect of a roller of a particular weight. 11/12 gram sliders equal 10 gram rollers.

Imo, I know a lot who swear by the sliders but I know some of them were replacing worn out rollers with fresh sliders so anything would seem like a big improvement! There is no real right or wrong. It boils down to your particular preference and driving style.

So they only last about 25 miles?!?!

[pud150b]

hello this is my first time on this forum,looks like you guys and guys have got a good forum going on here.

wow i never seen a slider do that before but i have rollers.
i'm still running a set of 10 gram sliders after a couple years.
i did have a problem once wearing one side of them down some and nicking them up.straightened them up with light sand paper.
my problem was i used the guides that came with the sliders and they were to wide for the stock variator ramp plate.it pushed them in some and caused the ramp plate to drag on the guides on the variator.
got the sliders running off, hanging up on down shifts.doing that was not letting the belt come back down to the lower gearing,caused belt to slip and putting more strain on the clutch and was heating things up pretty fast.
i see your running a performance variator so that might not have been your problem just some thoughts though.
i'm running the sliders now in a performance variator also.

pud

[ckau]

Originally Posted by joshstep1

So they only last about 25 miles?!?!

no , you get better milage than that but don't figure in miles , rather figure in hours of use depending on what you are doing. If your just casual riding on flat smooth ground mostly then rollers can last all year. Hill climbing/rock crawling can wear them out in a few days.
When I said I use 3 or 4 sets a weekend, this is under competition conditions. The C.V.T. [Constant Velocity Transmission] is under a abnormal amount of strain and heat. When we race, flat spotting rollers can happen at any moment. I constantly change out rollers to insure I stay on top of my game. We do hare scamble/rally racing which is about as hard on a buggy as you can get! Running ATV trails as fast as possible for miles at a time we don't slow for bumps and jumps! Down on the gas and hold it there as much as possible. Cracked frames, bent wheels,shredded belts, busted shocks/ ball joints and cooked cvt's are common.
You said you were going to 10 gram sliders. Remember sliders work like a roller that is 1 to 2 grams lighter. So a 10 gram slider will act like a 8 gram roller. you will never get to high gear before the motor rpms peak out. Thats fine for serious climbing where you don't need speed just torque. but you probably won't get over 20 mph before the motor over revs. A good general all purpose weight is 12 gram rollers or 13 to 14 gram sliders. This weight will give decent response through out the rpm range in a slightly modded 150 for most all riding
I change weights according to the type of terrain we will ride in. Lighter weights for hilly, rocky, rough muddy trails where top speed might not be possible. Then the heavier weights for flatter, smoother ground where we can mostly run wide open and don't need the extra pulling power
The ONLY thing roller or slider weight has an effect on is the amount of time the cvt takes to change gear ratios. Too light a weight,the motor reaches full rpms before the transmission has time to reach top gear. It will be like you are stuck in 1st gear. motor screaming but you won't get speed. Too heavy the weights, the transmission shifts up too fast before the motor has enough rpms to make power.Like trying to start off in 3rd gear the motor bogs down and it takes forever to get up to speed. Think of it like riding a mountain bike. you stay in 1st in the rough stuff so you don't wear your legs out but you pedal like hell to try to get any speed. then you can switch up to 3rd when the speed gets up and pedaling gets easier.
If you followed this and are not totally confused by now ,I'l throw another variable into the mix that has a lot to do with cvt performance. The engagement springs in the clutch These are the springs that allow the clutch to engage at a certain rpms. These have an effect on how well the roller/ slider weights work also Stock springs engage the clutch around 2800 rpms to 3100 rpms at take off. this is just fine for most all normal use.An example where you might want to alter clutch engagement would be in a drag race. You want to reach top speed as fast as possible so you would use stiffer clutch springs and heavy weights. The motor spins up to 4500 to 5000rpms to get in the power range before the clutch engages then the heavy weights get it to top speed as soon as possible. light springs with light weigths allow a smother slower takeoff without spinning the tires and hold the power at low speed for climbing.
I didn't mean to write a book here but I sensed a bit of confusion over the cvt transmission so I thought I could help to clear some stuff up. Don't get too worried over all this. For now, stick with the stock clutch springs , use some 12 gram rollers or slider equivalent, then go have fun!

[BuggyMaster]

where are you guys doing the hair scrambles?

[ckau]

Originally Posted by BuggyMaster

where are you guys doing the hair scrambles?

Durhamtown plantation atv park in georgia, http://www.durhamtown.com/

[SYCARMS]

I also have to say I never seen that happen before. I have been running sliders for over 2 years now and they look almost brand new, but they are the DR. Pulley brand. The only thing that would do that is excessive heat. Believe it or not the cvt under that cover can reach temps of 230 deg. and much more if your air inlet to the cvt is plugged. My guess is that it got plugged with snow or the filter just stoped up not allowing any air to pass thru the cvt and clutch. Look to see if the pulleys on the variator are blue as I would bet on them being. Check the air intake on the cvt cover and make sure air can pass thru it. I usually replace the filter with a piece of scotchbright pad folded over the cvt cover than clamped, easier to see and clean. Also check your belt that it is not stretched for I also bet on it being stretched. Also make sure your engine is not running lean for this will cause it to overheat and if crankcase temp is extreme the heat will transfer down the shaft right to the variator. I had a 250 cc which run very lean from the factory that would turn the exhaust cherry red on a summer day after hard riding and it melted flat spots on the rollers. Most roller failures are due to too much heat under the cover. Rollers roll less than 50 percent of there surface so the flat spots from wear will be small. When you get the large flat spots it is 99% due to dirty ramps or heat. The blades you see on the outer variator half are for moving air to cool the cvt. If any of them are damaged they will not move the air efficiently,or as stated earlier if the inlet or outlet are plugged air will nor circulate causing I seen as much as 350 deg when checking the cvt cover with a laser thermometer. Rember not all variators are the same, the stock one's will not take a whole lot of abuse. And yes the cvt is the major component of the transmission, the final drive is just what it says and is more so considered the rear end along with the sprockets. TOM

[Krusekontrol]

Does the ASW line come with sliders stock?

[joshstep1]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

I also have to say I never seen that happen before. I have been running sliders for over 2 years now and they look almost brand new, but they are the DR. Pulley brand. The only thing that would do that is excessive heat. Believe it or not the cvt under that cover can reach temps of 230 deg. and much more if your air inlet to the cvt is plugged. My guess is that it got plugged with snow or the filter just stoped up not allowing any air to pass thru the cvt and clutch. Look to see if the pulleys on the variator are blue as I would bet on them being. Check the air intake on the cvt cover and make sure air can pass thru it. I usually replace the filter with a piece of scotchbright pad folded over the cvt cover than clamped, easier to see and clean. Also check your belt that it is not stretched for I also bet on it being stretched. Also make sure your engine is not running lean for this will cause it to overheat and if crankcase temp is extreme the heat will transfer down the shaft right to the variator. I had a 250 cc which run very lean from the factory that would turn the exhaust cherry red on a summer day after hard riding and it melted flat spots on the rollers. Most roller failures are due to too much heat under the cover. Rollers roll less than 50 percent of there surface so the flat spots from wear will be small. When you get the large flat spots it is 99% due to dirty ramps or heat. The blades you see on the outer variator half are for moving air to cool the cvt. If any of them are damaged they will not move the air efficiently,or as stated earlier if the inlet or outlet are plugged air will nor circulate causing I seen as much as 350 deg when checking the cvt cover with a laser thermometer. Rember not all variators are the same, the stock one's will not take a whole lot of abuse. And yes the cvt is the major component of the transmission, the final drive is just what it says and is more so considered the rear end along with the sprockets. TOM

Thank You! Finally, someone who has given me a real answer. But, I'll have to check the variator and check back here tomorrow.

[joshstep1]

Originally Posted by Krusekontrol

Does the ASW line come with sliders stock?

No, they come with 13g rollers.

[joshstep1]

So, I figured out that the output shaft of the engine doesn't have to be replaced, so I'm just going to be buying the parts myself. I'll need a new fan plate, a set of 11g sliders, and a new drive belt. To me, it's not really worth it to put all of the stock parts back on it.