Camshaft specs..

[clutch dust]

Hello for the first time and congrat's on a cool site!

I have a couple of questions about camshafts..

I see there are a number of performance camshafts out there coming from different vendors and product dealers, where they only list the performance camshaft type as a simple "number code", rather than listing the actual valve event specs of the cam, lobe profiles, etc.

My 2 questions are~
Why are they only listed this way of alpha-numerically?

Why don't the manufacturers of these cams display the actual specs of said cams so the consumer can decide which one they want for a given application?

Thanks for the help guys and I look forward to contributing the board in the future.


- Phil

[clutch dust]

No one knows???

[BuggyMaster]

That's actually a great question and you are correct, no one knows. I figure they feel people don't care about the specs. Tom at SYC powersports may know the actual specs.

Essentially the lower the number, the more geared it is for a top end performance. So...if you were doing long winding trails where you wanted top end performance, you may want an A-9 or so. If you were doing a lot of short off road stuff with a lot of hills and not a lot of time at the top end, I'd say an A-11 or so.

Beware though that you get what you wish for. I've a got a video on the you tube site of our stock helix vs our modded helix with an A9 cam in it. The stock one waxed it up to 30 something MPH and then it was lights out for the stock one once those mods starting coming in to play.

[clutch dust]

Thanks for the reply. I asked because I'm curious more than anything I guess, especially to know what profiles are what, so I can find the right one for my "hobby buggy" I have here. (2009 ASW Carbide 150)

I'm a mechanical engineer by trade and I've got access to a Cam Doctor to roll a cam and find out all sorts of valuble data on a given profile. I could spin any of the "performance" grinds out there to see what they actually are, to eliminate folks "guessing" on what they need.

Additionally, our engine modeling software here requires the accurate input of various camshaft specs and valve timing events to determiine how it will perform in a given application, so as long as the input info of a given engine is correct, the output data is typically within 3% of being dead-on accurate on the engine's actual measured output.

Does anyone have any of these performance cams lying around I could borrow to roll on our test equipment? If someone is interested, I can give you my cell phone number via PM and we can chat.

This buggy engine stuff is pretty interesting.


- Phil

[BuggyMaster]

That's some very cool stuff you have there.

[olderthan]

welcome to the group

[SYCARMS]

I was curious as well and wanted to spec all cams I carried in stock from the A8 to the A14. So I sat down one very long evening with my degree wheel and dial indicator and carefully speced out each cam specing each one twice for good measure. Once I had all the specs I fed them into a program I foung from a cam grinding shop which than would spit out the real numbers. Man was I proud for now I would not list my cams as A8, A9 ect. but list them with actual specs. which I figured would give me an advantage in a tight market. I would remove all exhisting markings which referanced the A # with an actual spec card. Well as I was discussing this with a close friend over the phone my bubble was burst, it sounded like a continuous half hour of thunder. I was discussing with my good friend as to the specs of the A12 cam having a neg.7deg. overlap and he said " man you messed up on your specs cause I am looking at my A12 (which he purchased from the same supplier as I) and I can tell you without a doubt that it has a positive overlap". That evening he speced his cam and come up with different numbers for lift and duration, not that much but yet different but he come up with a pos. 3deg overlap. The next day we talked and I told him I was certain I had the correct numbers, so we swapped cams and speced each others cam out. Well he was just as surprised as I. We each got the same reading as the other had. I than pulled two other cams off the shelf from a different supplier an A10 and A8 and lo and behold they also speced differently. These cams are mass produced by many different factories in China and quality control is not on the top of the list. The only thing certain is that the lower the number the more top end, the higher the number the more lower low end. Now you know why they don't spec their cams. By the end of the run the specs will change, not by much but enough to make a speced out cam insignificant from the next. I guess it would take some one to give them the specs while checking evey so many cams for accuracy, but this would drive the price up significantly. I had a cam cround for my 150 and if I were to put it on the market it would have to retail for around $200.00. Another thing you have to realize about the Chinese is that they don't throw anything out. If they make say heads for hammerhead and they are rejected for bad casting they will sell it to some supplier for a discounted price. Your best parts come out of Taiwon since they have better quality control, but the sad part of it is many parts today marked Taiwon are not Taiwonese made since Taiwon is now part of China. Its just a shame that all the government regulations in this country keep products from being made here. TOM

[clutch dust]

Thanks for the reply Tom and your information seems to confirm my thoughts on the subjest of camshaft labeling and the hit-or-miss accuracy of each grind, depending what manufacturer it comes from... I guess It's easier and cheaper for the Chinease manufacturer to just grind a cam to "what-ever" specs and call it A-x, A-y or A-z, no matter what the specs *actually* are, since the public is none-the-wiser, nor could they ever verify what they are getting. I guess they must be thinking- What the public doesn't know, won't hurt them...

This is why I asked the question like I did, because I wanted to know *exactly* what I was buying by reading a cam card, not just from what someone was "telling" me it was based on some non-discript alpha-numeric number...

Just as a point of reference; I typically purchase all my powersports camshafts from Web Cams http://www.webcamshafts.com/ and I've done so since 1986 after I purchased my first Honda 350x 3-wheeler back in the day. They have been around for over 1/2 a century and they have their services down to a science!

Since then, I've purchased cams for my old Honda 200x 3-wheeler, a couple of other Honda 350x's I've had over the years, both of my former 1985 and 1995 1200cc Yamaha V-Max's and then again for my Honda Rincon 680 I had about a year ago. They're stuff has *ALWAYS* performed as expected, is super tough and is priced right for the excellent product you get. Plus, if they don't have something on the shelf that is what you need, they will custom grind you a cam for any application.

I guess, at least in this application in camshaft design, you get what you pay for, so I think I'll stick to American-made performance cams for my stuff.

[SYCARMS]

When you compare the stock cam with the perf. cams available for our buggies they are quite impressive. However I have found that as the buggy sport evolves it becomes more important to have the faster buggy. To a small extent this is starting to take place, and will only increase in time. Many of the members on both forums purchased their first buggy for the kids than they them selves got hooked on buggies. But most are on a budget which is one reason for buying the buggy in the first place. So when you shoot someone a $200.00 price for a cam they shudder and go for the $70.00 cam instead. Also the present state of the economy does not help either. As time passes and the buggy sport builds buggy owners will become more educated and make their decisions based more on quality than price. Not all Chinese products are junk, you have to weed out the bad and look for the good and this could be a challenge. Most American companies stand behind there products whereas the Chinese don't but the cheaper prices make it more palitable to most. Its a shame to know that American companies can compete with the Chinese but cannot due to the chains and shackles our government has on small business.Just study some American history and you will find that the small business is what made this country great and not the corporation. Large especially multi national corporations just suck everything from an economy, ours included. There are four steps to once again make this country prosperous. 1) The break up of all large monopolising corporations 2) Eliminate the politician and reinstate the statesman 3) Abolish the attorney to bring common sence back into our legal system. 4) Reinstate GOD back into this once great prosperous country cause after all biblical beliefs are what formed our most sucessful form of government a Republic. TOM

[olderthan]

tom
i agree completely

[clutch dust]

As a Christian man, a Libertarian and a small business owner myself- I most definately agree 100% with everything you said Tom, especially on your point #4, as he is truly where it's at to save this World from itself.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.


Phil

[SYCARMS]

It just amazes me how so many people are at odds with what I had stated. I believe the media is the main reason. We have been over the years conditioned to believe that the highly educated experts know best and will save us all, when all anyone has to do is open their eye's and listen. This is all it takes to see the lies and deception we have been being fed the past 60-70 years progressively. I can only pray that enough people have woken to this sham and will do something to curtail it. I often get into discussion of disagreement with those who believe there is nothing that can be done for God has said man will almost destroy himself and therefore his son Jesus will be sent to save us all. I mostly agree with them with the one exception, the Bible does not set a date for all this to take place it just tells us it will happen. The date and time this will happen depends solely on us. I'm glad there are many others who see life in the same light as I, I will now leave this discussion now, although it is of great importance it really had very little to do with cams. If to be continued we may want to move this to another location. TOM