Dirt bike engine swap, and more....

[SYCARMS]

I'll second that.

[Masteryota]

OK, a few hours to work on it today, you know, after going to the new Harbor Freight grand opening in my city.

The pics will explain faster than I can using words, so here ya go. Would have gone further and relocated the lower shock mounts, but I ran out of gas.

[toomanytoys2]

Who ran out of gas, you or the welder . It looks really good and I like how you triangulated the cut out. I can see now why you wanted to stay away from the head stay, it would have been a nightmare. keep it up

[SYCARMS]

Nice work

[x-bird]

looking good master ... always gas or wire on the last little bit ...i've got a few pounds left in my tank and am keeping my fingers crossed as to making it over the finish line without having to get my 4th or 5th refill of the year.

i learned pretty fast to save the shocks for dead last. it's amazing how things change as the build progresses in relation to mounting them.

Are you "clear" on the left (as viewed from the rear) swingarm top tube and the box tube brace you added to the frame at full travel? Looks mighty close.

The way those swingarm tubes splay out came back to haunt me on the right side with bracing i added in a similar manner. Didn't find out until I heard the banging over the bumps.

[Masteryota]

Are you "clear" on the left (as viewed from the rear) swingarm top tube and the box tube brace you added to the frame at full travel? Looks mighty close.

No. They did not clear from the factory, and I don't anticipate they will ever be that close again. I did modify the driver's side tube to clear the pull start, and that may be why it looks a lot closer than normal, but at this point, I don't have to have them either. I do plan on closing in the tube ends, and grinding the cut a little to match the contour of the bracing, but that will have to wait till I at least hear this guy run. The head actually gets quite close the the seat belt bar at that level, but again, I just left them in those holes for the purpose of showing off. Once I change the lower mounts, I anticipate another 2-3 inches of freed up movement, and the top 2 holes are really for if I decided to go with longer shocks down the road.

I could tell the gas was running low from the bulky welds and constant seering sounds, and this will be my 3rd 125 tank fill so far. The wire spool still has about 10lbs left.

And for my next trick, I will attempt to get the engine running and try to piece the exhaust together somehow, I want to hear that modified pipe. Oh, and finding a place for the oil cooler, too.

[Masteryota]

More frustrations! Anyone here use Airgas for their welding gas? Because I am about done allowing them to take my money. I got my tank swapped out Friday, and today when I hook it up, it has a whopping 25psi..... Great, another day cut short. If I may ask, what is the normal pressure for a freshly filled argon/CO2 tank?

Back to topic. Minor improvements, moved the lower shock mounts and braced up a few of the factory joints on the swing arm while I had the engine out. Moved the mounting point forward 2", brings the angle down and more acceptable, and still leaves about 3" articulation with shocks in the top holes.

I used to doubt my welding skills, until today, when I finally got the old shock mounts off, I found 2 spots the original metal was taken out with the cut welds, either I found the weakest points, or I got real good penetration.

I also made a change on the oil cooler side, decided to ditch the 1/4" barbed fittings and found some 3/8" x 1/8"NPT 90 degree fittings from ACE, to eliminate the need for an inline reducer to mate the oil cooler hard lines to the hoses. The oil cooler lines are metric, but fit rather snugly into 3/8" fuel line, and I hope to not need to flare the ends to keep the hoses from popping off If anyone has input on going from hard line to hose, please chime in.

[x-bird]

I'm always forgetting the pound weights of the various tank sizes. I use the 7 inch diameter 42" tall mig tanks, (60 pound?) 1500 psi is the typical fill pressure for a fresh tank on my regulator. Me thinks someone grabbed a tank out of the empty pile or passed the buck and someone dropped it. i'd return it first thing so they can't claim you burned through it or had a leak.

given the heat the oil cooler hoses/lines will be seeing, i'd get a flaring tool and put one on the end rather than run straight pipe. definitely not a spot to compromise.

[Masteryota]

Thanks, I have a 125 tank, and it seems to run out pretty fast. It seems I jumped the gun on the pressures, forgot my regulator shows in kg/cm2, and not psi, so 25 kg is about 350psi. The manager at Airgas was sympathetic, and made sure I got a new, verified full tank, and hand delivered it to my car, guess they aren't as bad as I thought.

My real concern was the fill, only seeing 175-200 on the regulator was disturbing, but now I know its closer to 2000-2500psi.

[toomanytoys2]

Also, you want to know the rating of the fuel line that you are going to use. If it is Fuel injection line, it should handle the pressure fine, but what is its heat rating? Remember that you may be seeing temps in the 200 degree plus areas. I would also run some sort of flare, because if you are not using a PSI gauge, you may not know that you blew off / burst a line until the engine seizes.

[SYCARMS]

You don't want to use fuel line for after time it will get soft and rupture. Use oil line.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

You don't want to use fuel line for after time it will get soft and rupture. Use oil line.

Had not thought about that, I don't know how I keep making rookie mistakes, I know petroleum eats rubber for lunch

[SYCARMS]

One would think that the oil would not affect fuel line. I think the main reason is due to the fact oil is a much higher temp than the fuel.

[Masteryota]

You know, after you mentioned that, I looked at oil and trans cooler lines, and the temp rating is much higher, but the big difference is the inner material, which, if I remember correctly, is either polyester or polypropylene, which is petroleum resistant, not to mention, its almost kink proof.

[Masteryota]

Axle installed, all bearings installed, except the center one(have to order 2 bolt cassette), boxed the outers with angle, as X suggested. Couldn't resist putting her on the ground, and I am impressed with the ground clearance change, 13.5 in the front and even 14 in the rear at the frame with mock up golf cart tires installed, have 20" for the front. The rear track is now 54" and the front at 52".

[x-bird]

looks familiar back there. Cant wait to see you with a runner, but rollers are still a big hurdle to get to and over. If you go to change rear tires, about 11.5 wide is max iirc. I got 12.5s on mine, but it took the golf cart rear housing & axles to do it. What tires did you go with up front? i've been really please with the price and performance of the kenda dominators (20x8x7)

[toomanytoys2]

Looking good. How is the exhaust coming? I looked for the Cobra slip on SA, but couldn't find it. My wife thinks that I put it on a bike I sold.

[SYCARMS]

That is the first blue Yerf I've ever seen. They are Red yellow or green with the majority red. Looking forward to the review of performance with the engine your going with.

TOM

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by x-bird

looks familiar back there. Cant wait to see you with a runner, but rollers are still a big hurdle to get to and over. If you go to change rear tires, about 11.5 wide is max iirc. I got 12.5s on mine, but it took the golf cart rear housing & axles to do it. What tires did you go with up front? i've been really please with the price and performance of the kenda dominators (20x8x7)

Me either. Right now, they are 1/2 worn turf tires, but on 10" wheels, which I traded to give myself options looking for used tires. I have been eyeballing those dominators, and also the pathfinders. It really happens to be what is on sale at the time I purchase. For the rear, I have been looking at hi-run utility tires, but can not seem to find cheap 12" wheels for the 23x11x12, so it will likely be a golf cart all terrain(22x11x8) or knobby in a 4 ply. I have my eye on a set of carlisles, but man are they proud of their rubber.

Looking good. How is the exhaust coming? I looked for the Cobra slip on SA, but couldn't find it. My wife thinks that I put it on a bike I sold.

No worries, I am looking to add another mount for the engine, and then I will look at my pipe considerations, for the time being, I am going to suspend my intentions of going to public lands, and just get the thing running. The original plan to cut down the can I have is being modified, due to the fact I don't want it drag racing loud, so once I get the engine settled in, I will come back to it.

That is the first blue Yerf I've ever seen. They are Red yellow or green with the majority red. Looking forward to the review of performance with the engine your going with.

I know! I thought this one had been repainted, but still has all the original stickers. All I ever see is the red ones, and occasionally I see a blue one pop up on the sites.

[toomanytoys2]

Mines blue, so great minds must think a like .

[ckau]

Ole' Godfrey only offered two colors in the spiderbox model. The 3606 was red and the 3608 was blue. Both were identical except for the color. The red model was a lot more popular in the day so there's not a whole lot of the original blues around. Any other color besides the red and blue means the chassis has been repainted

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by ckau

Ole' Godfrey only offered two colors in the spiderbox model. The 3606 was red and the 3608 was blue. Both were identical except for the color. The red model was a lot more popular in the day so there's not a whole lot of the original blues around. Any other color besides the red and blue means the chassis has been repainted

Thats what I gathered from the remaining yerf web site. Mine is designated a 4209, which corresponds to the sticker on the CVT cover. 3206/4206 is the red model, and yes, far more common it seems. I am torn when I think about paint, I kinda want something different, but I also don't hate the original color combo either.

[SYCARMS]

Prior to the closing of their doors, Yerf Dogs available through Sam's Club were available in Red, Yellow, Blue and Green. I'm certain of this since I still have the order form from Sam's for either a Green or Blue Yerf for my son before I decided to go with the Blade. The original Yerfs which were assembled in the USA were in fact either Blue or red.

Originally Posted by ckau

Ole' Godfrey only offered two colors in the spiderbox model. The 3606 was red and the 3608 was blue. Both were identical except for the color. The red model was a lot more popular in the day so there's not a whole lot of the original blues around. Any other color besides the red and blue means the chassis has been repainted

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

Prior to the closing of their doors, Yerf Dogs available through Sam's Club were available in Red, Yellow, Blue and Green. I'm certain of this since I still have the order form from Sam's for either a Green or Blue Yerf for my son before I decided to go with the Blade. The original Yerfs which were assembled in the USA were in fact either Blue or red.

Were the Sam's club yerfs imported?

[SYCARMS]

All the yerfs were imported from China. The difference is, prior to sams club selling them they were made in the USA. Sam's Club versions were complete from China. Several ways to tell the difference is by the Made in USA sticker on it as well as the brush guard was fastened with standard SAE bolts, the welds on the frame were complete all the way around the tube. All the tubing, components and drive train come from China. Yerf would then weld the frames and totally assemble them here in the US. The ones from Sam's Club used all metric bolts, cheaper wiring as well as connectors and the frame welds were mostly not welded completely around the tubing. The quality control was non-existent and many were returned to the local sams club where they would just either refund or exchange with the customer. Sam's club would then ship the broken buggies back to Yerf. Not sure of the shape of Yerf Dog prior to the Sam's Club deal but when they imported the complete buggy from China and Sam's Club policies, that put them out of business. Like I said in my last post I had placed an order with a particular Sams Club for either a blue or green one in time for Christmas. I was talking to someone at work who knew the manager at the Sam's club I ordered from and when I talked to him which turns out he worked for the airport I worked at as an operations supervisor during the day and Sam's in the evening, he showed me a room with about 60 buggies with everything from broken frames, hubs, axles that were going to be shipped back to Yerf for credit. He said there policy was if it breaks they do an exchange but if it breaks again a refund would be offered if the customer wanted a refund. He told me that they were currently looking for another line to replace the yerfs with for all the problems they were having out of them. Wasn't long after Yerf went bankrupt and was liquidated.

[Masteryota]

Wow! Globalization strikes again. Guess the Walton boys didn't mind putting yet another decent company out of business, another notch in the metaphorical belt, as it were, to save a couple bucks. I always thought the balljoint issues and resulting injuries and lawsuits put them under. I had assumed the damages paid out and the massive recall on the joints posed too much financial burden and led to their demise, and eventually sell off to BMI and other companies. That being said, any of the surplus parts available may be from these old Sam's Club sub par units?

[SYCARMS]

WalMart was a different company when Sam Walton was alive. Employees were happy for they hired many of the retired without any health insurance. Pay was minimum but the benefits were good. True they sold Chinese products under Sam Walton but if a US company could compete then Walmart carried their product. Sam's philosophy was to supply the product cheaper then anyone so the manufacturer had to cut its prophet but made it up in the production numbers with a healthier profit. After Sam the family took it over and this is when it changed to what you now have.

[ckau]

Dang Tom ,I had no idea. All these years and I thought I researched about everything pertaining to a yerf. I never knew there were other colors offered. Now that you mention it I found this yerf rendition somewhere and the frame is green. This pic was part of the inspiration for my own project.

[Masteryota]

Ok, back to topic a bit. Looking at jackshaft options, and I am leaning toward using a shorter 1" axle for it, but is that going to be overkill? I was leaning that direction due to the fact I can easily machine down the sprockets to the 520 size if they came with a 1" hub, our brake lathe happens to have a 1" shaft. Gearing and chain size pretty much rule out most of the pre assembled kits available, so I would be assembling the kit from individual parts. Planning to use pillow block bearings with built in lock collars, along with lock collars for the sprockets, obviously. Another option is using the weldable hubs, as long as the center hole is above 1" to cut the sprocket.

I like cutting the sprockets down on the lathe due to the fact I can control the heat build up, and avoid dis-tempering the teeth with a grinder. The only drawback, other than having access to the lathe, is some chatter when going over the teeth portion, but is easily fixed by reversing the direction of the sprocket, and doing a slow, light cut. Some polishing with an abrasive disc makes it look close to factory, and reproduces the original angle, which I am told, helps guide the chain under any deflection.

[x-bird]

going with 1" keyed, and taking the 50 sprockets down is probably your best option. watch out with the lower grade steel pre-keyed shafts- they usually have a bow in them from the key cut. on the smaller sprocket sizes (i think, but not sure -- it's right around 19T and under) you will also have to shorten the teeth and recreate teh tip angle on ALL sides of the tooth. a file works fine for adding the inside angle back after taking them down. A lathe or mill is definitely the way to go, but i haven't noticed any unusual wear yet.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by x-bird

going with 1" keyed, and taking the 50 sprockets down is probably your best option. watch out with the lower grade steel pre-keyed shafts- they usually have a bow in them from the key cut. on the smaller sprocket sizes (i think, but not sure -- it's right around 19T and under) you will also have to shorten the teeth and recreate teh tip angle on ALL sides of the tooth. a file works fine for adding the inside angle back after taking them down. A lathe or mill is definitely the way to go, but i haven't noticed any unusual wear yet.

Yeah, I was actually going to order it from BMI. The axle I just installed came to me in great condition, and I am rather impressed for the cost. They have some shorter lengths available, too. Too bad I need to order so much from surplus supply, the shipping costs between the two are going to kill me, lol.

[SYCARMS]

When I started looking for a buggy for my son, without researching the internet all that was available were the fun karts with pull start mower type engines found at most Wal Mart and K Marts. I then seen the Yerfdog @ Sam's. They looked sturdy and had electric start. They were all kind of homely looking but again we were looking for a go kart and not a car. This was in 2004. All the buggies mentioned so far were stickered Made in USA. In 2005 my son's interest in a buggy grew more intense. This is when I started researching on the net and found the Carter but wasn't crazy with the looks of it. It wasn't until about November when I noticed the Blade, and started learning the down side of the yerf. Moving forward to 2006, Stuart asked me if I would go to the yerf dog plant which was the first time I learned they were manufactured in Mississippi. They already had shut down and Stu was looking to purchase the stock. The factory was huge and had a ton of parts and buggies but were 90% returns, broken frames, axles, hubs, some were good but with bad motors. Shelves were stocked with new parts and frame pieces, accessories ect. Bottom line is BMI took control of the liquidation and would only sell everything including buildings and according to Stu wanted too much money for it. From what I learned is when Yerf started selling to Sam's the buggies were still made in the USA. Sam's then went to Yerf and said they needed there cost to be lower. This is when Yerf had them totally made in China and shipped directly to Sam's. Yerf still made them in house for their other markets. After about a year of the new Sam's deal Yerf had many returned buggies from Sam's club due to bad quality and were loosing money. Just a side note.. If I order buggies from China I have to put 50% down with the other 50% owed when the containers reach customs. After customs, epa inspections and payment is complete customs will release them to the buyer. Sam's on the other hand paid nothing until a container reached their store in which they paid Yerf 50% with the balance due once the buggy was sold. This keeps the inventory on Yerf's books saving Sam's taxes on inventory.. Sam's placed a huge order in 2005 prior to the Christmas season with part of the order delivered in time for Christmas and the rest by the first of 2006. In the mean time Sam's was putting the pressure on Yerf to sell them buggies with better reliability but the same low price. When Christmas came and many buggies were still being returned Sam's struck a deal with the crossfire people and refused delivery of any future Yerf buggies and the refusal of remainder of payment of already delivered buggies. This left Yerf with about 100 containers of buggies in customs for which they had no money left to get them out of port. This put more duties fees and storage fees on the backs of Yerf for which they were already over extended on their credit as well as delinquent in payments. That is the reason reorganization was out of the question and liquidation was the only option. So as Paul Harvey would say Now you know the Rest of the Story.

Originally Posted by ckau

Dang Tom ,I had no idea. All these years and I thought I researched about everything pertaining to a yerf. I never knew there were other colors offered. Now that you mention it I found this yerf rendition somewhere and the frame is green. This pic was part of the inspiration for my own project.

[2SlickNick]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

When I started looking for a buggy for my son, without researching the internet all that was available were the fun karts with pull start mower type engines found at most Wal Mart and K Marts. I then seen the Yerfdog @ Sam's. They looked sturdy and had electric start. They were all kind of homely looking but again we were looking for a go kart and not a car. This was in 2004. All the buggies mentioned so far were stickered Made in USA. In 2005 my son's interest in a buggy grew more intense. This is when I started researching on the net and found the Carter but wasn't crazy with the looks of it. It wasn't until about November when I noticed the Blade, and started learning the down side of the yerf. Moving forward to 2006, Stuart asked me if I would go to the yerf dog plant which was the first time I learned they were manufactured in Mississippi. They already had shut down and Stu was looking to purchase the stock. The factory was huge and had a ton of parts and buggies but were 90% returns, broken frames, axles, hubs, some were good but with bad motors. Shelves were stocked with new parts and frame pieces, accessories ect. Bottom line is BMI took control of the liquidation and would only sell everything including buildings and according to Stu wanted too much money for it. From what I learned is when Yerf started selling to Sam's the buggies were still made in the USA. Sam's then went to Yerf and said they needed there cost to be lower. This is when Yerf had them totally made in China and shipped directly to Sam's. Yerf still made them in house for their other markets. After about a year of the new Sam's deal Yerf had many returned buggies from Sam's club due to bad quality and were loosing money. Just a side note.. If I order buggies from China I have to put 50% down with the other 50% owed when the containers reach customs. After customs, epa inspections and payment is complete customs will release them to the buyer. Sam's on the other hand paid nothing until a container reached their store in which they paid Yerf 50% with the balance due once the buggy was sold. This keeps the inventory on Yerf's books saving Sam's taxes on inventory.. Sam's placed a huge order in 2005 prior to the Christmas season with part of the order delivered in time for Christmas and the rest by the first of 2006. In the mean time Sam's was putting the pressure on Yerf to sell them buggies with better reliability but the same low price. When Christmas came and many buggies were still being returned Sam's struck a deal with the crossfire people and refused delivery of any future Yerf buggies and the refusal of remainder of payment of already delivered buggies. This left Yerf with about 100 containers of buggies in customs for which they had no money left to get them out of port. This put more duties fees and storage fees on the backs of Yerf for which they were already over extended on their credit as well as delinquent in payments. That is the reason reorganization was out of the question and liquidation was the only option. So as Paul Harvey would say Now you know the Rest of the Story.

Wow, that is very interesting. I hope my choice with a Carbide ASW holds true to the company's name.

[SYCARMS]

The ASW is a good buggy. The only downfall is since they use the internal reverse Hammerhead engine in which a different crank is used, the option of installing one of the stroked cranks is not possible, but I'm working on that and hopefully we will have one some day. I personally like the external reverse, they are bullet proof. The internal are too easy to tear up but do have a neutral where the external does not.

[Masteryota]

Came to work on buggies, left with a history lesson. I love picking the brains of the experts, so much info not publicized that really gives you a picture of what happened, and why. I still think it was sh*tty of sam's to put such a strain on an otherwise good company, although I'm sure something else would have drove the nails in their proverbial coffin. I really hate to hear these tales of woe for small american companies. Do you know what happened to the loads of buggies stuck in port after their demise? I know that was years ago, but it is still interesting to me what actually happens to all the odds and ends during one of these sell offs. I know BMI is still selling surplus and NOS yerf parts, but I don't see any frames.

[SYCARMS]

Have no idea. I do know the fees add up quickly. If they are not paid, no telling what customs will do with them. My guess is that BMI probably got them in liquidation. They probably stripped them to sell the parts. The few times I called them they did not give dealer discounts and were proud of their parts. I had a customer some years back who bought an engine from them and paid 365.00 for a used engine and carrier. The engine was not run much but had a bad crank bearing. He had them ship it to me to rebuild and cost him another $165.00 to ship the whole back carrier and engine on a pallet.

[Masteryota]

I need some input, I know we touched on it before, but I want to makes sure I am not setting myself up for issues later. I am finalizing the mounts on the engine, and can not seem to find a decent way to grab the head stay or upper rear mount without getting in the way of the exhaust or carb and intake boot. I made a new lower mount and added some angle to grab some threaded holes in the case near the same mount, and I am planning on boxing the mount to also grab the other end of the bolt. The mount is still removable to assist in engine removal without cutting.

[x-bird]

wish i had a photshop type program. looking at the pics on the top of the page, the head stay you could run a pair of short tabs up off either side of it and weld those to a cross tube. the cross tube i'd carry over to the top of the swingarm top frame tubes and put tabs on the end of the cross tube and plates on the top swingarm frame to bolt to. kind of the same deal with the rear mount, but maybe a more arched tube to give you exhaust clearance.

[toomanytoys2]

Master,

Have you ever pulled the shock springs off to see how much clearance you have when the suspension is compressed? If you could do that then shoot some pics, we might be able to see things more clearly.

[x-bird]

ok, here's the two crudest photoshopped pics you'll ever witness i think ... LOL

dark green would be tubing, lighter green would be the bolt plates. you should be able to sneak these in without clearance issues from the looks of it. rear tube would be run at whatever height you need to get it above or below the exhaust.

bolt plates for the rear mounts on mine are just inside the rear frame triangle.

bolt in cradle does the same thing you're after. I attached at side and top, (could probably chop those top tubes out--hmmm more weight to shed LOL) you only need to catch the sides.

[toomanytoys2]

Xbird,

Are you suing DOM or just regular tubing in your build?

[x-bird]

Originally Posted by toomanytoys2

Xbird,

Are you suing DOM or just regular tubing in your build?

you know heinz ketchup ... 57 varieties ... given i was dealing with 1" .095 welded, that's what i bought when i redid the cage and main framework. 48-foot of the same. everything else varies from chrome moly to emt to God knows what, just depends on what its purpose and load is--for instance, that cradle is quadrunner frame tube, thin wall nissan sentra seat frame tube and angle iron.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by toomanytoys2

Master,

Have you ever pulled the shock springs off to see how much clearance you have when the suspension is compressed? If you could do that then shoot some pics, we might be able to see things more clearly.

I have not. I have, however, crawled up on the rear rack, and jounced with my body weight(320ish) and it touches the exhaust valve service cap if I really give it h*ll, I will be looking at that, once again .

I tried my darndest to come up with something for the head stay that doesn't look like an hack job made it, and came up with nothing. In the process, I did make something that looked decent for the upper case mount, and proceeded to make it fit. Along with boxing in and gusseting the lower mount, I put it all back together, and like it was stated above, I gave the rear a good smacking, and it revealed I still have a clearance issue with the head and the seat belt bar. I have been rolling around the idea of converting to 1/2" heims out back, and may look at longer shocks to compensate for the additional set back of the swing arm. I really don't want to chop the shock mounts out again, although it would be easier.

[toomanytoys2]

Master,

Any updates on the buggy?

[Masteryota]

Not really, kinda in the middle of a few things in different areas, nothing remotely close to being done or photo worthy.

Waiting to hear from possible aircraft grade heims supply for the swingarm, searching night and day for front shock options now that BD discontinued the kit I intended to buy, working on converting the tub to a single seat all at the same time. Spent half a day realigning my engine mounts to ensure proper chain alignment, the other half coming up with a game plan for extending the swingarm again, and starting to think I should have built a new one from scratch, and researching possible longer rear shock options while I'm there. Also, I have mixed feelings about my rack placement, and the heims I put in place due to the joint being almost maxed at full extension, coupled with the amount of bump steer I still have and then old man Ackerman comes back to see me telling me I should have scratch built my steering knuckles to fix a few unforeseen issues.

So no, no real updates, per se, just rehashing some game plans. I see one of my personality traits/faults coming out in my work, being a perfectionist, impatient, and frugal doesn't mix well.

[x-bird]

Originally Posted by Masteryota

So no, no real updates, per se, just rehashing some game plans. I see one of my personality traits/faults coming out in my work, being a perfectionist, impatient, and frugal doesn't mix well.

That sounds soooo familiar ....

for heims check Aurora's website and see if they have a dealer (usually a race or machine shop account) near you. Their stuff is aerospace/aviation grade/spec.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by x-bird

That sounds soooo familiar ....

for heims check Aurora's website and see if they have a dealer (usually a race or machine shop account) near you. Their stuff is aerospace/aviation grade/spec.

My father in-law works for Rolls-Royce aviation, rebuilding turbines in the navy training jets, and he is supposed to be sending me a handful of the heims they toss after a certain amount of flight time. I am not really counting on it, and looking at buying a pair with bungs and all included, rated at 40,000+ lb/sq.in.

I also ordered a bigger fuel tank to mount in the back rack, unfortunately, I did not measure correctly, and it takes up most of the rack. I wasn't planning on using the rack except for battery box and fuel tank, but I don't know that I could squeeze a box in the remaining space and still be able to access it easily. Oh well, at 4.5 gallons, I don't really have to worry about running out of fuel. ever. lol

I do need to ask a question for the lurkers, though. I keep running across recommendations for using Carter shocks for the front ends on the yerfs, but I am convinced that the market is completely dry on this part. If anyone has a line on these or has a set stashed in their tool box, please let me know. I know the works are superb, but a little out of my price range at the moment.

[Masteryota]

Ok, so no more recommendations on the front shocks, huh? I think I am going to try what T3beatz did here.

A few things got finished today, seat mounted in the center of the buggy with scratch made seat tracks. Tossed the beat up and worn out sliders, not that I have any short friends anyway.

Mounted the gynormagantuan fuel tank on the rack. Took up most of the rack, maybe enough space to strap a small power sport battery on the L/H side.

Finished up the swing arm extension and then proceeded to search for one of the bushings for 2 hours to bolt it up and check the clearance. Got it bolted up, installed the engine, and had the wife eyeball the head to seat action. With the preload bumped up one notch, I was able to get the shocks to bottom out, and still had about an inch before it touched the seat. Yes I had planned to apply some heat resistant tape to the back of the seat, and running header wrap as well. Should be enough to keep my pants from catching fire. Hopefully. Also, with the extension and not moving the shock mounts, I only lost about 1/2" of ground clearance in the rear.

Next will be trying to get the engine to run, and routing the exhaust. Still up in the air if I want to reuse the stock head pipe or have another made. Then back up front to the tie rods.

I do have a question for Xbird. I noticed you have your outer tie rod ends hung vertically, how does this effect your turning radius? I am contemplating changing my current design and researching methods.

[2SlickNick]

I have a pair of Kawasaki Mojave shocks which are 15" from eye to eye. Would extra shock length help you out. Bad is each coil I believe is 300 lbs rate.
http://www.zbrozracing.com/atv/suspension/springs?p=1
Was thinking about going to this site and buying softer coils.
Just a thought....

[toomanytoys2]

Master, with that gas tank, you'll run all week and still give fuel to your buddies when they run out.

[x-bird]

master;
A bit lengthy, but it's a workaround if you encounter the same issue.

vertical mount provides full suspension travel without worrying about bind. I ran into bind a lot with a horizontal mount and smaller heims even with high misalignment spacers.

I was able to get full lock out of the heims.
When i first built mine, I added 11 teeth to my rack (offset yerf spiderbox type) and cut them to position it on center. So my steering can run waaay more turn to lock than a stock yerf.

When i made the new arm and heim mounts, i put them at 90 degrees on the arm tube, which was a mistake. I had ground the arm mount holes on the tabs to have them on an angle and forget to set them that way.

At first I got about 75 percent lock with the standard cone spacers i ordered with the heims. I could have gone with high misalignment spacers to fix the problem.
4 reasons not to:
1. Time.
2. Expense.
3. added width between the tabs would force the end of the arm closer to the tire and make it weaker.
4. they fit in the heim bore and reduce the bolt diameter. #4 reason has caused failures everywhere i used them albeit with 12mm heims going down to 10s. bent bolts and crushed/distorted spacers.

To get to full lock, i put 2 cone spacers back to back on a 5/8ths bolt and nutted them from each side. Cut the head off the bolt and put it in my drill press. Ran my grinder on the OD to reduce it as the heim body hit it at full angle. That got me a few degrees back, but then the heim's bore edge made contact with the angle on the cone spacer. Same drill press setup, ran a carbide taper burr and ball burr on the angle of the cone and made it concave. end result--full lock.

Had I mounted the tabs on an angle leading forward to the inside of the frame and the arm lower with the tabs heading more to a 45 degree upward angle, there would have been no interference with the spacers to full lock.
However, i have a very small amount of area to work the steering arm in before it will foul inside the arms at full lock and droop--dangerous deal, I nearly rolled it in the last race when that happened. forgot my misalignment spacer during the first repair and the bolt end dropped 1/2" lower out of the steering arm and locked up in the lower a-arm.

I'm actually building new spindles, the axles are slightly off from each other on the pair i have. Using the same design and materials, just correcting the axles and steering arms.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by toomanytoys2

Master, with that gas tank, you'll run all week and still give fuel to your buddies when they run out.

Thats kinda what I was thinking, lol. I couldn't beat the price and it already had a filter and petcock included. Here is the link if anyone is interested.

I have a pair of Kawasaki Mojave shocks which are 15" from eye to eye. Would extra shock length help you out. Bad is each coil I believe is 300 lbs rate.

There is a guy on BN that runs the mojave shocks out back, but with progressive springs. I was looking at 400ex shocks, since they are pretty light on the weight side, but since I don't have an interference issue, I am going to run with these for now.

@xbird- Wow, thats quite a bit of work to get them to fit. I was concerned mainly about the joint maxing out at full lock like you had. I might forgo that idea for now, and modify my existing knuckles to obtain the angle that I need. I really hate the idea of using spacers or washers to shim the joint into its proper location. One idea that I have is to angle the knuckle where the tie rod attaches to roughly 30 degrees to both raise the tie rod angle for bump steer, and also to give the outer joint more articulation without binding. At the same time, I am looking at making clevis for the inner tie rod ends to get things right.

I am also entertaining the idea of making a new location or the attachment, to incorporate some Ackerman at the same time, and put it closer to the ball joint to give a little more turn in the front end. when this is all said and done, I too, like MSM did, will likely need to build my own spindles to get what I really want.

[x-bird]

Originally Posted by Masteryota

Thats kinda what I was thinking, lol. I couldn't beat the price and it already had a filter and petcock included. Here is the link if anyone is interested.




@xbird- Wow, thats quite a bit of work to get them to fit. I was concerned mainly about the joint maxing out at full lock like you had. I might forgo that idea for now, and modify my existing knuckles to obtain the angle that I need. I really hate the idea of using spacers or washers to shim the joint into its proper location.

It's very, very common to use cone or misalignment spacers with heims to increase the clearance angles. In the past, i've made the same setup using lug nuts. the spacers were actually pretty easy and quick to mod once i figured out the method to do it.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by x-bird

It's very, very common to use cone or misalignment spacers with heims to increase the clearance angles. In the past, i've made the same setup using lug nuts. the spacers were actually pretty easy and quick to mod once i figured out the method to do it.

I am actually looking at high misalignment spacers with 1/2" joints for the outers to see if that cures my issue. Right now if the tie rod tube was straight, the out joint would max out with a 10" shock installed. I want to be able to run a 12-13" shock out front for max articulation and full use of the balljoints. I did not realize there are no mis alignment spacers for 3/8" joints at this point, so now I need to dig up some 1/2" heims with the 3/8" spacers to get what I want. The object here is to make something that functions well, and is esthetically pleasing to me, as I will be looking at it all the time.

I have decided to cut out the existing bungs and toss the old rods/square tube, and make new ones from round tube, with left and right hand threads for easier adjustment. The only thing is the placement of the outer joint dictates how long it needs to be. I know the tie rod needs to be at the same angle as the control arms for reduced bump steer, but looking from above, if I were to run the rod at an angle closer to the ball joint, would that have any negative effect on anything?

What I am trying to do is resolve 3 things at once, lessen any bump steer, decrease turning radius by making the spindle turn more, and add some ackerman angle to attempt to get the front end geometry somewhat closer to where it should have been in the first place. I should know these things with my background, but all the racing guys around here just bolt things together, they don't actually know what they are doing.

Edit: May have found some high mis 1 piece joints for reasonable $$, is 55 degrees a substantial amount of swing for $10/ea?

[2SlickNick]

[QUOTE=Masteryota;36239]Thats kinda what I was thinking, lol. I couldn't beat the price and it already had a filter and petcock included. Here is the link if anyone is interested.[QUOTE=Masteryota;36239]


that is a great deal. Fuel gauge too,sweet.

[x-bird]

you'll be plenty fine with 55 degrees. i'm pretty sure mine started with around 27 degrees--bare heim--and i probably got them to about 35/40 degrees with the spacers for it to work and there is a lot of angularity in mine at full lock.

pros and cons as always to some of the things you want to do/change. short "tight" steering arm = small amount of turn needed at the wheel, but harsher kickback. longer = more turn needed at the wheel, but better "fine" control and "shorter" kickback from the same hits.

Ackerman --- always a matter of debate as to how much, if any and whether positive or negative. ackerman didn't factor in contact patch distortion, outside wheel loading and scrub--his ideas and theory came during the tall wheel wood spoke days with low speeds. Based on a false premise in some ways when applied to modern vehicles. Too many jump on the "gotta have positive ackerman" bandwagon without really looking at their architecture and geometry. Front steer can make it difficult to achieve positive. I run negative, set it that way, and like it that way. Positive and my ride will barely corner above 5 mph. I tacked on mount after mount on my steering arms to figure out which way worked best.

if you have no choice, it's better imho, to have non-parallel tie rods in the vertical plane in comparison to the horizontal in relation to the a-arms. The parallelism in vertical is only "temporary" Once the suspension begins to travel and the rods move during cornering it will go out of parallel, so the method i shoot for is parallel at loaded ride height or a little into the travel.

in horizontal, it only loses parallel during cornering and the amount relates to the steering arm's horizontal arc.

Sometimes you have to mentally project things to the extreme to see which way to go. Especially if you don't have software to play with. imagine a rack 3 feet out in front with a tie rod going way back on an angle to the arm. the arm junction will be highly susceptible to dumping any impact force into the juncture and folding inward and not transmit up the tie rod. go extreme enough with the angle and you could see that the spindle could rotate and barely affect the rack at all. instead the tie rod would move more front to back rather than in and out.

[Masteryota]

Ok, so I acquired a shifter cable from a mid 2000's corolla this week, a very stout push pull cable complete with eyelets and all. The ends were tricky to make mounts for, but nothing a drill and file couldn't handle. Chopped the engine shift lever down and rewelded it to the splined portion. I have a good idea about how to mount the cable to the engine, although I am concerned about the leverage needed. I should be able to adjust accordingly.

The big issue is, I can not come up with a shifter design that is functional and not cheap looking. I want to keep the handle away from the outer frame for obvious reasons, but for the life of me, my creative juices just aren't flowing. I did take a look at a sequential shifter for sand rails, and while it would solve my problems, it is expensive, and kinda small. Help me out if you would.....

[2SlickNick]

What about making some space for it at your pedals? With a cruiser motorcycle type shifter for your heel and toe. You could even have the peg for your foot to rest on/ brace it on with out accidentally shifting.

[x-bird]

what about something basic like a pair of vertical plates on the floor with bolt holes, a spacer welded to the end of a piece of tube, bolt goes through the spacer and mounts. Eye at end of cable goes onto a bolt welded to the side of the tube about 2.5- 3 inches off the floor and a second floor mount in line with the bolt with a cable clamp or stop for the cable housing. All you need is a fairly shallow arc of around 1-2 inches in handle distance. overall length of the tube would provide the leverage you need---trust me, you don't need much ... in hte "visible" area at the top fo the tube, you could put whatever you want on it ---t-handle, pistol grip, Oury BMX grip ;~) shifter ball etc ...

[toomanytoys2]

How about modifying your basic 150 forward / reverse buggy shifter. You could modify the separator notch to allow enough lever travel to shift gears and to control the lever travel. Also, if your cable end would not fit through the eyelet, you could put a slot in the eyelet like they do for a motorcycle clutch lever (see Pic)

Also, what are you going to do to keep the shift lever centered at the motor? I found this pick, in case you can use it.

[Masteryota]

What about making some space for it at your pedals? With a cruiser motorcycle type shifter for your heel and toe. You could even have the peg for your foot to rest on/ brace it on with out accidentally shifting

As an avid rider, that was my first thought, but there isn't much room under the column and frame nose for the to and fro, and my cable isn't that long. It is actually about 2 inches too long for the engine I have and the placement on the R/H side of the seat.

How about modifying your basic 150 forward / reverse buggy shifter. You could modify the separator notch to allow enough lever travel to shift gears and to control the lever travel. Also, if your cable end would not fit through the eyelet, you could put a slot in the eyelet like they do for a motorcycle clutch lever (see Pic)

Also, what are you going to do to keep the shift lever centered at the motor? I found this pick, in case you can use it.

That might work, except this buggy only went fwd, no reverse, no stock shifter

As for the centering of the shifter, it has quite the preload to keep the lever in place, plus I added heavier clutch springs, which made a difference, at least me hand shifting it. Keep in mind, these engines, like x and I are running, have the clutch built into the shifter mechanism. When you lift the lever, it actually engages the clutch a microsecond before moving the shift drum. It snaps back to its rest position, but I will put something in place to limit the throw on the shifter end.

@x-bird. I sort of follow your idea, but I was thinking of putting the pivot above the cable attachment point to keep the cable position low and near the floor pan. Its probly just me, but I want everything nice and clean looking, and that means wires, linkages, cables and hoses have to be low and tucked away almost out of sight. I went out and snapped a couple pics of the cable mounts and ends. I like the 2 plate idea with the shifter sandwiched between them, that also easily adds the option of setting stops on the front and back of the arc. Just need a way to make it lighter.......

[x-bird]

You could put the cable link down low easily enough. Taller brackets coming up, weld a through-tube at the pivot point with about 1/2 inch stick-out on the side the cable attaches. At the bottom, weld a small stud off the side of the shifter tube, drill a hole at the end, washer, cable eyelet, washer, spring clip. (that's the attachment type I used at the engine end, makes it really easy to remove for engine/chain work.)

My linkage point is high because it was the only place I could get a straight shot back to the shift lever on the engine through all the frame tubing. (had to do some cutting even to get that.

Pics---remember, with the layout you're considering, forward with the lever will be your downshift, and pulling back will be your upshift.

Don't mind the dirt--only pressure washed it once after the race

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by x-bird

You could put the cable link down low easily enough. Taller brackets coming up, weld a through-tube at the pivot point with about 1/2 inch stick-out on the side the cable attaches. At the bottom, weld a small stud off the side of the shifter tube, drill a hole at the end, washer, cable eyelet, washer, spring clip. (that's the attachment type I used at the engine end, makes it really easy to remove for engine/chain work.)

My linkage point is high because it was the only place I could get a straight shot back to the shift lever on the engine through all the frame tubing. (had to do some cutting even to get that.

Pics---remember, with the layout you're considering, forward with the lever will be your downshift, and pulling back will be your upshift.

Yep, kinda want the pattern that way. Been thinking over the shifter portion since the beginning of the build, just didn't know how exactly I was going to go about making it happen. I was trying to find a pc program to illustrate the idea in my head, instead I started cutting and grinding and came up with a prototype of what I have in my minds eye.

Need to redo the handle portion, drill press wasn't quite level and the pivot hole isn't true. Added a bronze tube bushing to fit over the spacer tube, might nix that on the next handle. The cable will attach through a slot cut through the side with a clevis pin. The only thing that worries me is the amount of throw, but I am sure I'm over analyzing my design.

[Masteryota]

OK, tried to get the engine running this morning, found the coil is shorted to ground, and the CDI tested bad as well, according to the honda manual. Oh well, back to ebay we go.

Spent some time with my shifter idea, remade the handle a little longer, nixed the bushing sleeve this time. Skeletonized the plates, and made a bolt in bracket with provisions for the cable bracket. Still messing with the leverage, right now it won't shift in its current position. Might need to make a new shift lever at the engine and reroute the cable.

Any ideas on how to increase the leverage without changing the throw distance?

[x-bird]

looking at the engine lever, i'm wondering if you're pulling through the final arc of the shift. the straight shot you have the cable pull on may be the issue. try moving the cable eye to the end of the engine's lever so it pulls on a bit of an upward angle.

[Masteryota]

That was going to be my next move, I may need to reroute the cable if I have to go out to the end of the lever. I may have made a mistake cutting the shift lever, but parts are pretty cheap if I need to buy another.

[toomanytoys2]

master

Your work is looking good as usual, but since you are starting to fine tune it to your particular motor, I would like to make a suggestion. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you may want to get the engine running before you go much farther. That way you know that your power plant is in good shape and you are not building your special brackets / shifters for an engine that has issues. It may also help you in setting up your shifter, since most of these engine react to shifting differently when they are running, versus when they are not. Just a thought.

[Masteryota]

I purposely leave things semi open ended for future changes. I appreciate the compliment, and yes, I too want to see the engine run before I get much farther along. I had heard these engines shift a little differently when they are running. That is the main reason I tried to get it running prior to finalizing the shift handle design. Although not entirely planned, I have not made much that is not easily reversible. I was aware of possible leverage issues at the shift lever side due to shortening of the lever, so trying a new hole is no big deal.

[Masteryota]

Welp, I spent the rest of my monthly buggy budget this afternoon on some tires. Not bad for $20/ea, eh? 23x10x10 should fit nicely on the rears.

[toomanytoys2]

Good Score, was it an ebay deal or did you get them local? Should really make a difference in the ride quality. The bigger tires tend to roll over the bumps, rather then dropping in them.

[x-bird]

that's a really good score. decent rubber gets too spendy these days.

[Masteryota]

Good ol' craigslist brothers. I was hoping for at least 4 ply, but beggars can't be choosers. It has to be an old tire, they don't list a 23 in that model anymore. Now to scour for some fronts...

Also been on the look out for other possible donor engines, amongst other things.

[icebox187]

Yeah, we should definitely get these things out when you're finished. I've got a chain rub issue with the diesel that I'm going to fix in the morning and then mine should be rolling. Although, my back left tire is more like a slick than a knobby. Your project looks great btw. Where are you at?

[Masteryota]

Been awhile since I actually got something done on the Yerf, 2 things have been driving me bonkers for weeks, oil cooler and exhaust.

I got a stock oil cooler from an ATC 350x. It turns out, I really like the old ATC's, and might look for one soon. I have been beating my head against the wall trying to figure out where to mount the blasted thing, so today I pulled the trigger and mounted where I originally wanted it. Not perfect, but all things are a compromise at this point. I would have rather had it lower and out of the way of debris and branches, but also wanted adequate airflow without being in the way in the passenger compartment. Like I said, compromises. I found a guy that soldered barb fittings to the ends of this same cooler, and I like that idea a lot better than a partial flare on the ends.

After looking for pre bent sections of 1-1.5" exhaust pipe, I finally found someone that can make them. So I chopped and mocked up where I want my muffler and pipe routed, and sent the order in for what I need.

FYI, carbon fiber is tougher to cut than I thought, and about 4,000 times as itchy as fiberglass. I ended up cutting 7 inches off the can, making it a 9" center section, plus end caps. Probly gonna be pretty loud

[toomanytoys2]

I don't think it will be too loud, but I bet it will have a nice throaty rumble . That's a fairly big can, was it originally designed for a 450? I bet that at the price of a carbon fiber muffler, you must have done some serious pondering before making the first cut.

[SYCARMS]

Looking Good.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by toomanytoys2

I don't think it will be too loud, but I bet it will have a nice throaty rumble . That's a fairly big can, was it originally designed for a 450? I bet that at the price of a carbon fiber muffler, you must have done some serious pondering before making the first cut.

It actually came off a friends GSXR 1000. He replaced it after he dumped the bike on a drag race. I picked it up for $20 with the stainless pipe and the A/F sensor. It has 1.875 ID baffle tube, which I hope will keep it from being too raspy and sound like one of those fart tube coffee can mufflers. Best of all, it weighs next to nothing, and the carbon fiber cans onlt get about 100 degrees on the liter bikes, so this one should never get above that, even with the head pipe wrapped.

[Masteryota]

Small update, but huge weight off my back. Finally dialed in my shifter issues. Picked up a new lever, and started measuring and checking, and low and behold, I found my main issue. The cable I have only has 2.5" of throw, and I need ~6" at the end of the lever. Shorter lever proved bad idea. I tossed the idea around of using hard linkages, but could not find much info on people using them in conjunction with a swingarm. If I find something I like with the linkages, I may still consider doing it.

I then figured out how to multiply my throw, with a sub linkage. It's complicated, but it works, and does not require much effort up front. Getting the right angle and pivot points consumed most the day, but I got my final link in place, and boy am I happy.

Still waiting on some electrical parts to come in to get the engine to run. I also found that the cooler lines are not aluminum as I thought, they are steel, which shoots holes all in my plan to solder brass barb fittings to the ends. Oh well, back to using a flare tool, i guess.

[toomanytoys2]

As far as the barbs, you should be able to silver solder them on. Brazing would be stronger, but you would probably melt the brass fittings in the process. From what I have read on the oil pressure on a DB engine, it is pretty low in comparison to a car engine, so silver solder should be plenty strong.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by toomanytoys2

As far as the barbs, you should be able to silver solder them on. Brazing would be stronger, but you would probably melt the brass fittings in the process. From what I have read on the oil pressure on a DB engine, it is pretty low in comparison to a car engine, so silver solder should be plenty strong.

I have everything for silver solder as I was expecting to solder them on the aluminum, but can you silver solder to steel?
They are not stainless, as they stick to magnets. I gathered some fittings, but they turned out to be too thin on the solder side due to drilling them out to match the metric tube. Guess I will make a trip to ACE this week, they seem to have damned near everything. They don't list a spec in the manual for the pressure, but I would expect 15-20psi minimum.

[toomanytoys2]

You can silver solder steel, but it is not your garden variety silver solder. You want to have a higher concentration of silver if I remember right. Do you have any welding shops local? They can point you to the right solder, but it's not cheap.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by toomanytoys2

You can silver solder steel, but it is not your garden variety silver solder. You want to have a higher concentration of silver if I remember right. Do you have any welding shops local? They can point you to the right solder, but it's not cheap.

Yeah, thats what I found with the aluminum solder as well, I just happened to have some really thin stuff at work that had the acceptable tin level. I am looking a bead rollers, or possibly doing a few tack welds on the tube and file it down with the same end result. It all depends on if someone in my shop has a flaring kit. I picked up some trans cooler hose this week, gathering parts for the big bang, I just want to hear it run so I can sleep easier.

[toomanytoys2]

I like the idea of running beads around the tubes. If you have the room, you could slowly build them up, then file or dremel the back side square and you would have your own barbs. Just make sure that you wrap a wet rag in between the welds and the cooler. Don't want to mess up any of the coolers solder joints.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by toomanytoys2

I like the idea of running beads around the tubes. If you have the room, you could slowly build them up, then file or dremel the back side square and you would have your own barbs. Just make sure that you wrap a wet rag in between the welds and the cooler. Don't want to mess up any of the coolers solder joints.

Welp, I ran a small bead at the end of the cooler lines. Cleaned them up and they don't look real pretty, but it works. Plumbed in the oil cooler lines.

Finally got the engine to run, and she runs pretty good. Might look into the electric start kit, but right now it starts on the first or second pull, so it might not be so bad. I ended up using a GY6 CDI and coil and convert the harness. The stock CDI's seem to be failing left and right, likely due to use and time, and the factory new honda ones are too high, if you can find them in the US. It seems in '86 they went to a similar GY6 style anyways.

Sorry Tom, I know I asked, but I had to try something I found on the trike sites, it was a gamble, but $6 for a CDI is a safer gamble than a honda unit.

Sitting and idling, the head runs around 180 degrees, the oil cooler dropped the oil temp around 20 degrees with no airflow. I am real happy with the engine so far. Also found the shifting is smooth and a little easier with it running, and surprised that I got the clutch linkage correct on the first try

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4-is...ature=youtu.be

[2SlickNick]

Great!!! I am a long time fan of ATC's and it is awesome to see you and X bird resurrecting these beasts.

[SYCARMS]

Sounds really good.

[toomanytoys2]

Ah,

The sound of the old Honda ATC engines. Sounds good and tight and the jetting seems to be pretty good on the carb. Good job on using the GY6 CDI. I would suspect that you will have a little more pep with it. The ATC engines were never really high performance tuned. I would bet that the CDI will have a little more advance built in as well as a higher rev ceiling .

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by toomanytoys2

Ah,

The sound of the old Honda ATC engines. Sounds good and tight and the jetting seems to be pretty good on the carb. Good job on using the GY6 CDI. I would suspect that you will have a little more pep with it. The ATC engines were never really high performance tuned. I would bet that the CDI will have a little more advance built in as well as a higher rev ceiling .

That was the general consensus on the trike sites. So many guys complaining about fouling plugs and intermittent shut downs on the old 200es models, then one guy chimed in and suggested the GY6 $5 CDI. Several members reported back that their machine never fired off on the first pull, and never sounded as aggressive as it did after the change. I stuck with the standard CDI, as it has the minimum advance built in, and the engine has a mechanical advance driven off the cam, which is adjustable. The carb is a chinese keihin copy, when I checked, it has a 38 pilot, and 98 main, which is leaner than stock, which should have been 40 pilot, and 100 or 105 main. The body is bigger than the original as well.

I am not too worried about the jetting right now, as I still need a filter, intake tube, and will be running a larger pipe and muffler. right now its showing rich, and I messed with the pilot screw a little bit to stop the popping in the exhaust. BTW toomany, I held the modded muffler up to the pipe, and it drastically lowered the sound, and sounded pretty aggresive when I revved, so you are right, and I am happy

I been taking it easy, nursing a bum knee all week, so today I just made some pedals from angle iron and left over spacers from my shifter build. Tossed the idea around of hanging them off the frame, mimicking automobile style pedals, and it would have allowed me to hide the master in the bulkhead, and mount it the way I really want, but I like to keep things simple. Made them a little long, that way you don't have to step right on the pedal stem like the stock ones. Also allows me to lay my gynormous feet at an angle and still hit the pedals. Still adjusting to the time change, so I ran out of daylight before I could tack them in on the floor.

I am reusing the yerf master and caliper(for now), so now I have to steal Ckau's method of attaching the master to the pedal. I'm not 100% happy with the choice, but it beats moving the pedals closer to the seat and sacrificing leg room in an already small frame.

I am also planning to add an additional down tube from the top frame halo to the floor pan brace, which will also act as a rest for when not on the brakes, to avoid riding them. I might look into moving the seat back another inch or two, depending on what the exhaust pipe looks like after install.

[rocko]

Yota ,nice calculations and fabrications , I can see the love in your work , ------- I think you will be very happy with the output of that ATC200 , I had a 1982 Honda 200 three wheeler and it was very fast @55mph , and when in lower gear it has a lot of power -------- there were a few different variations of that engine , some had electric start and some didn't , one had a reverse shifter built into the right side the engine right in front the chain sprocket , maybe that is something that can be swopped , some had reverse and no lever on case , I seen a pic of a complete 200 ATC on Gulfport Mississippi Craigs list last week for $85 -------------- I do believe the engine I am using in my build is the same engine with a few mods to the tranny ,it is the 1986 Honda TRX200SX , it has reverse , pull and electric start and a semi auto 5 forward with S/L ( super low 1st gear ) and this ATV engine will do 55 as a ATV I know cause I rode it before using it and have another ATV just like it running now -------- I hang out on the Hondaatvforums and I 'd bet those guys could tell you a lot about the starter swop over and the charging system , I would think if there is no battery then it could be ac and not dc , maybe take a look at the headlight bulbs markings , I just found this thread and started reading , it is going to take a few reads to get thru all of it , you may be way ahead of where I am reading

[rocko]

Yota ,nice calculations and fabrications , I can see the love in your work , ------- I think you will be very happy with the output of that ATC200 , I had a 1982 Honda 200 three wheeler and it was very fast @55mph , and when in lower gear it has a lot of power -------- there were a few different variations of that engine , some had electric start and some didn't , one had a reverse shifter built into the right side the engine right in front the chain sprocket , maybe that is something that can be swopped , some had reverse and no lever on case , I seen a pic of a complete 200 ATC on Gulfport Mississippi Craigs list last week for $85 -------------- I do believe the engine I am using in my build is the same engine with a few mods to the tranny ,it is the 1986 Honda TRX200SX , it has reverse , pull and electric start and a semi auto 5 forward with S/L ( super low 1st gear ) and this ATV engine will do 55 as a ATV I know cause I rode it before using it and have another ATV just like it running now -------- I hang out on the Hondaatvforums and I 'd bet those guys could tell you a lot about the starter swop over and the charging system , I would think if there is no battery then it could be ac and not dc , maybe take a look at the headlight bulbs markings , I just found this thread and started reading , it is going to take a few reads to get thru all of it , you may be way ahead of where I am reading

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by rocko

Yota ,nice calculations and fabrications , I can see the love in your work , ------- I think you will be very happy with the output of that ATC200 , I had a 1982 Honda 200 three wheeler and it was very fast @55mph , and when in lower gear it has a lot of power -------- there were a few different variations of that engine , some had electric start and some didn't , one had a reverse shifter built into the right side the engine right in front the chain sprocket , maybe that is something that can be swopped , some had reverse and no lever on case , I seen a pic of a complete 200 ATC on Gulfport Mississippi Craigs list last week for $85 -------------- I do believe the engine I am using in my build is the same engine with a few mods to the tranny ,it is the 1986 Honda TRX200SX , it has reverse , pull and electric start and a semi auto 5 forward with S/L ( super low 1st gear ) and this ATV engine will do 55 as a ATV I know cause I rode it before using it and have another ATV just like it running now -------- I hang out on the Hondaatvforums and I 'd bet those guys could tell you a lot about the starter swop over and the charging system , I would think if there is no battery then it could be ac and not dc , maybe take a look at the headlight bulbs markings , I just found this thread and started reading , it is going to take a few reads to get thru all of it , you may be way ahead of where I am reading

I actually have found the parts list for converting to electric start, but I really don't want to split the cases again I have looked up the add on conversion kit, which is still available, but at 300 clams, I'll have to pass, for now. The model trike you are referring to with the hi/low/rev is the 200es, which is shaft drive. That one has an external box where the sprocket should be, and again, I'm sure splitting the case open is needed. They also used that same set up on the trx200, but not the sx model. I also had an '86 200sx that I gave away

I already purchased a Honda regulator to convert to DC accessory power with a battery, in the repair manuals, it actually shows the option for a battery add on with just splicing in a regulator between the lights and the stator.

Recently I came across some info on a trike site, and they stated the single pole stator in the ATC's, can put out roughly 5-6A. Nothing wildly amazing, but enough to comfortably run an LED bar upfront and small LED tail/brake light. I am going to put the head and tail on a switch to keep from robbing the engine of power the whole time as well.

I am tossing the idea of an electric reverse around. With so many boneyards around here, I can likely have the starter and gear for less than $50. Finding one that isn't freaking huge is the issue.

I believe the 200sx was one of the units that came with the reverse inside the case, which again, I kick my own @ss for giving mine away now.

[rocko]

I want to finish my cart but something always comes up , now it's hunting season , fishing season , football season and shrimp and crab boil seasonings

[icebox187]

Cool! it runs, so when we gonna go ride? Mine's already been banned in my neighborhood =)

[x-bird]

Originally Posted by Masteryota

I am tossing the idea of an electric reverse around. With so many boneyards around here, I can likely have the starter and gear for less than $50. Finding one that isn't freaking huge is the issue.

I believe the 200sx was one of the units that came with the reverse inside the case, which again, I kick my own @ss for giving mine away now.

a 12 to 20 hp lawn tractor should have a ring gear in the 12-14 inch dia range. don't know about down your way, but up here, there's always a half dozen or so piled up in the scrap yard.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by icebox187

Cool! it runs, so when we gonna go ride? Mine's already been banned in my neighborhood =)

I am shooting for first test drive before the end of the year. Will be a few shake down runs with all the mods. Even though I am the most interesting guy in the neighborhood, I am sure to press my luck in getting the law involved. Especially since they live here too, lol

[SYCARMS]

Originally Posted by rocko

I want to finish my cart but something always comes up , now it's hunting season , fishing season , football season and shrimp and crab boil seasonings

You forgot to mention the honey do season.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

You forgot to mention the honey do season.

Yeah. Thats year round for me. I knock my list out during the week...

a 12 to 20 hp lawn tractor should have a ring gear in the 12-14 inch dia range. don't know about down your way, but up here, there's always a half dozen or so piled up in the scrap yard.

Thats a damned good idea! I will look into that. Since I am putting it on the jackshaft, I won't need the big gear reduction as it will already be 2.5:1.

[x-bird]

Originally Posted by Masteryota

Yeah. Thats year round for me. I knock my list out during the week...

I just letit build, ignore it, then tell her it's her list and i'm too busy working on the buggies~!

Thats a damned good idea! I will look into that. Since I am putting it on the jackshaft, I won't need the big gear reduction as it will already be 2.5:1.

My only comment to make on the starter type setup is whether the electrical system you have can take the draw. on flat stuff i don't think it's an issue, but if you have to back out of a hole or back up a bank off the trailside (been there, done both) I don't think the electric type will handle it unless you have big cables and a big amp battery.

[Masteryota]

Originally Posted by x-bird

My only comment to make on the starter type setup is whether the electrical system you have can take the draw. on flat stuff i don't think it's an issue, but if you have to back out of a hole or back up a bank off the trailside (been there, done both) I don't think the electric type will handle it unless you have big cables and a big amp battery.

I'm not sure where that second sentence came from in the quote, but its pretty close, lol.

I had not looked that far into the future about the electric reverse, but I do have a spankin' new group 35 battery(525CCA) on the self, so it can be an option. Cables are pretty cheap, even if you make your own. Guy at my shop bought the battery relocation kit for an S2000 for less than $30 with terminals, add an old school ford truck solenoid, and I'm set. The one thing I think might sink the boat is that the ring gear, at least the Briggs engines, is part of the cast iron flywheel. I don't want that added rotating mass.

I am starting to research starter and ring gear options. I THINK I might be ok with a 4 cylinder starter and ring gear given the gear ratios already in place, but can't be 100% till its tested. Right now, I am focused on throttle and brake lines, and getting the jackshaft built. Then a booty hole puckering test drive.

[x-bird]

if you come across any kohler pro command engines, take a peek. i think they may have welded rings. I've got a working starter from one, but the flywheel from it got sent of to scrap last year.