Manco vs. Other Brands Like Baja

[Tosser]

I am new to all of this but based on the ads I have seen it seems that most mini dune buggies (Kandi, Coolster, Baja, etc.) are using a knockoff of a Honda GY6 engine and CVT. They seem to be rated between 8 and 9.5 hp when you look at specs.

Whenever I see ads for Manco (and Yerf Dog) it looks like the engine is rated in horsepower rather than cc's. Many have Subaru Robin engines in 6.5 (169cc), 9 hp (265 cc).

My question is how do you compare these. Is a 6.5 (169cc) Robin engine comparable in power and performance to a 150cc GY6 (rated at 8 hp)? Is a 9 hp Robin (265cc) really in the same class as a 250cc buggy?

I feel like I am comparing apples and oranges. Can someone please fill me in on this. Thank you for any help.

[x-bird]

It is difficult to get a good "statement" of hp with the GY6 engines. They're high-revving engines--up to 10,000 that are more "top end" compared to the lawnmower style horizontals. The mower styles have good strong bottom end grunt but are all in by 3500-4,000 rpm in stock form. It is an apples to oranges comparison, an automotive analogy would be comparing small displacement short stroke, small bore vs big cubes with long stroke and big bores.
The choice comes down to riding style and terrain, what you like working on and what you like listening to. These nuts around here just converted me to a GY6 mill that i have yet to try out ... I'm from the big cubes and stump pulling torque makes the world go round camp ....


Also, and very important, nearly all the mower-type engines are found in go karts and buggies that are just at the threshold for adults to run in. Most of those with the GY6 are built to be capable of hauling around adults and surviving the load.

[metalstudman1]

Originally Posted by Tosser

My question is how do you compare these. Is a 6.5 (169cc) Robin engine comparable in power and performance to a 150cc GY6 (rated at 8 hp)? Is a 9 hp Robin (265cc) really in the same class as a 250cc buggy?

I feel like I am comparing apples and oranges. Can someone please fill me in on this. Thank you for any help.

X-bird covered the bulk of it-
First off- The Robin 9 hp isn't in the same class as a 250cc buggy engine.
Wheel speed is the major difference with more RPM's. The next major difference is how you're getting the HP to the axle- Lawn mower style engines use a friction/centrifugal clutch via a chain or CVT that uses a clutch & driven unit via belt to chain with all the components exposed to the elements. The CVT on a GY6 uses a variator & clutch via belt internally to chain and not exposed to the elements.
These differences are apples to oranges as well and make a critical difference in how the HP is best used and maintained.
The next significant difference is that most lawnmower style engines DON'T have alternators, electric start or reverse. The other style will always have both alternator & electric starter and possibly a kick start too. Both types require about the same engine maintenance (oil change, gear oil). The lawn mower style with a CVT will require regular cleaning & dry lube about every 20 hrs. Hope this explains it a little more where you can make an educated decision.

[T3beatz]

I Went from a 6.5hp briggs... to the Gy6 150 I have now and I don't want to go back to the lawnmower engines again. It seems you get smoother power with the gy6 type engines and less belt replacing! The extra stuff like reverse and power start is a bonus!

[Tosser]

Thanks guys. I'll go with gy6.

I made a deal to pick one up tomorrow. It is a Baja 150cc with full suspension but doesn't run. I'll have to see what the situation is and try to fix it.

[T3beatz]

good decision, I went from my Manco Intruder to my Yerfdog spiderbox, even though I had to put a couple hundred into my spiderbox to beef a couple things up, it has been well worth it. In the short time I had my intruder I had to replace like 3 belts. And it was just to small for two full size adults. My spiderbox on the other hand has no problems with carrying two 200Lb dudes through trails, and the rack-n-pinion makes driving it so much easier!

You shouldn't have to many problems with getting the 150cc to run, parts are all over the net for the gy6 engines and they are very inexpensive.

[Tosser]

Thanks, I hope I can get it going. My brother has a lot of tools including a welder and we have done pretty well fixing up old garden tractors (mostly Wheel Horse). Hopefully we can get the GY6 figured out.

The engine is suppossed to be in good shape but the starter isn't working. Sounds like it might be an electrical problem or a burned out starter motor.

This will be the test vehicle. If we can figure it out and get it running I will pick up at least one more and put a nice racing course in at my place in the mountains. I think it will be a lot of fun.

[T3beatz]

new starters can be found for little as 25 bucks on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Moto...ht_3334wt_1163

that's one possibility, the other is the starter relay solenoid, or the fuse.

I'm sure when you get it if you get stumped there are plenty of guys on here that can help you figure it out.

[SYCARMS]

One rule of thumb to follow is , if it doesn't run lowball the price. It may seem like a starter but can be more serious or you find once started it rattles or has no compression. The seller will not disclose all thats wrong, they will tell you that when running it runs like a champ. I wouldn't give more then a couple hundred for a non running buggy. I have built 2 engines in the past 6 months of customers who were told it ran great until the --- went out and since the kids don't drive it I'm not going to put the money in it or I have the part but no time to install. The customer pays 600-700 dollars gets it home only to find the engine is shot.The good thing about these things is that compared to an atv there cheap to build. The GY6 is rated anywhere from 9HP to 12HP but this is at the output shaft and if checked at the wheels it is closer to 5HP but can be doubled or more with the right mods.

TOM

[T3beatz]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

The GY6 is rated anywhere from 9HP to 12HP but this is at the output shaft and if checked at the wheels it is closer to 5HP but can be doubled or more with the right mods.

TOM

Tell that to my buggy, 5hp at the wheels! huh, I think it will kick you. lol

[Tosser]

Thanks for the suggestions. We had a deal for $400 but the seller never came through so the deal is off. I thought I had a deal made for a Dazon 150cc but the seller sold it before I was able to pick it up. Now I am back in the search.

I am looking into a Talon 150cc. The asking price is $1,000. It runs and is in good shape but the price seems a bit high. There is also another Dazon that I emailed about but haven't heard back.

Any word on the quality of a Talon vs. a Dazon?

[SYCARMS]

Just keep in mind that some Carters used the sym engine which was an excellant engine but since Carter is out of business parts are hard to come by for the 2 bolt valve cover sym's. If in excellant condition both cosmedically and mechanically $1000.00 is not a bad price since they went for $2500.00 new. This is truely a buyers market yet and your offer with cash in hand will usually strike the deal as long as it is not a rediculisly low price. The Dazon is a very good buggy but I believe there were a few with the 2 bolt valve cover, so beware of that.

TOM

[T3beatz]

honestly $1000 bucks is a bit much, especially for a buggy that is not made anymore, and who's company went up in flames (literally)... what year is it? you can find a good 150cc buggy for around $600-700 bucks if you look hard enough.

I got my yerf dog spiderbox, a spare swing-arm with a gy6 engine mounted in it, 4 extra tires and rims and a front end from some old buggy and other various parts all for $350.00 from craigslist. My brother paid $300 for his with a spare engine (the guy says it runs but smokes).

I browse around on craigslist all the time and run across overpriced buggies. This is one in particular that I just want to email the seller and tell him he needs to go down in price or it will never sell (but he may find someone dumb enough to pay). http://stlouis.craigslist.org/for/2843093904.html this thing was like 1800.00 new, its old, and they don't make it anymore (but you can still get parts for it).

all I can say is, what ever you buy, just make sure you can get parts for it, or you have some kind of welding skillz. If the engine is a GY6 you should be fine in that area, because parts are all over the place for those. All I can say is personal value and true value are two different things don't let someone get the best of you because what they think the buggy is worth.

[SYCARMS]

$1650 new @ sams club. I said $1000.00 was not bad because the early models still have parts available and compared to the yerf for which I know many love them comparing a yerf to a carter is like comparing apples to rasins. The yerfs had no reverse which badly needed it due to its poor turning radius and unless driving in the open fields you will be getting out to push , the front end is prone to fail as is the rear axle, and hubs. The suspension well all I can say is if you wear false teeth you will loose them and if not you will soon need them, braking is less then satisfactory, and due to the poor suspension when driven hard the frame has weak areas prone to cracking. The only positive I see is the Howlet motor and due to such small tires they will climb well. But when you repair all the weak points on the yerf you will have more time and money in it then the $1000.00 Carter if in excellant shape.Of the six bashes I have been to carters and hammerheads rarely broke the yerfs were always being worked on with the exception of those being totally modified. They are great project buggies and just as fun but not a turn key buggy.


TOM

TOM

[Tosser]

Sorry about all the questions but I am shocked by the number of brands I come accross selling similar buggies. Anyone know anything about Eppella?

[T3beatz]

True about the yerf needing mods... since I have bought my yerf I have put about $300 into it to make it trail worthy. The most expensive purchase so far has been the BDX spindles... other than that it's been small stuff here and there. The spare motor had a reverse gearbox on it so i used that. I got a good set of 22" rear tires and rims for 50 bucks, and the front 19"s came with it, but I did have to buy some hubs from BMI for them to fit. surplus center shocks (yello and black 12.00 each) on the front, and some ebay specials on the back. The rest of the upgrades were CVT mods (rollers and springs), CDI, coil, spark plug, etc... So all in all I have a trail worthy buggy for about 650-700 dollars. My next mod will be heim joints and tossing out the ball joints for added strength. Once I get done I'll have a buggy that can hang in with the big boys for about 800 and that's cosmetics included (paint, fenders, roof, etc..).

now you pay 1000 bucks for a stock buggy, your gonna put 200-300 bucks into it doing mods and what not.

here are a couple decent buggys on craigslist in my area... http://stlouis.craigslist.org/mcy/2850160692.html

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/bar/2850088653.html

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/mcy/2799710716.html

If I had $500.00 I'd by the last one.

[T3beatz]

Originally Posted by Tosser

Sorry about all the questions but I am shocked by the number of brands I come accross selling similar buggies. Anyone know anything about Eppella?

I've never heard of them, but it could just be a Re-Brand. A lot of these companies import from the same manufacture and just put there name on stuff.

From what I'm reading its not popular on this side of the water. I see most of them are overseas.

[metalstudman1]

Tom- once again you've well informed the masses!! Spiderbox purchases are labors of love - the old school buggy styling (out front A-arms/tires,seemily roomy cockpit,seemily longer travel suspension,ect..) There are far more better engineered machines out there for just a few dollars more that will function without near the constant repairs for the same amount of beating. Spiderbox's should only be the choice when you enjoy the fabricating or modifications as much as the "funtime" spent on them.

[GX150]

The allure of the Yerf is its simplicity: One rear brake, No reverse, Lights directly off the stator, plastic seats, 3 simple switches.

This is the perfect starter buggy to learn the basics. Once modified to correct cost saving shortcuts (under $1500 new out the door), it's unique design offers some advantages over the typical strut based buggies. If you plan to pick up a stock Yerf, expect to spend $300-600 to beef up parts and add reverse.

Honestly this buggy is so light that front brakes were never a need and reverse was merely a convenience that messed up the super low gearing advantage of the stock 13t setup. Even with the rear buried to the axle, the front can be lifted by one person and rotated 90 degrees to get you out of the rut. When I cleaned mine, lifting the front up until it sat on the rear of swing arm allowed you to wash both sides of the floor pan.

What other 150 would be comfortable doing this?

[T3beatz]

I second that gx150. This is my first "true" buggy and I love it, I've owned a couple Mancos (dingo and an intruder) but this tops them by a mile, even when it was stock.

[SYCARMS]

As I said prior loyal yerf owners love their yerfs. But honestly I have never had a problem going where a yerf goes in my Blade. I have a yerf which I plan to modify into a single seat dirt drag buggy.My Blade cost about $400.00 more then the yerf new, I can climb anything a yerf can climb,or go anywhere a yerf can go. But if I do get stuck or in a situation I can simply use reverse which keeps me from having to get out of my 5 point harness to move the buggy and it has a much tighter turn radius for narrow trails which we mostly have in these parts.The ride is so much better then the yerf's. I can go twice as fast down the trails with so much more control then in the yerf. But the best part of it is since 2004 with all the hard ridding I have done I have not yet had to replace any front end components, or rear axle due to breakage or wear. Now I'm not trying to put the yerf down cause they are great buggies for the right person who likes to and has the capabilities to tinker. But there are those who bring their buggies to shops like mine for repairs, the yerf is not for these people. I have known many over the years who sold their yerfs and then bought a Carter, Hammerhead, Blade ect, I have never known anyone to do the opposite. Its a great project buggy if your good with that and they can be had for cheap. So I hope I have not upset anyone who owns one or given the impression of putting them down, for it does not matter what buggy you have for when they run their a blast,but the yerf is unique to a unique bunch,and is not for everyone.

TOM

[T3beatz]

I doubt that you've upset anyone... We know what you mean, and yes I do plan on getting a hammerhead style buggy (don't know what that style of chassis is called) in the future to have as a spare, I'm hoping to find one for around $500 or so, even if I have to put a little $$ in it to get it up to par. I did own a crossfire for a few weeks and it had great turning, much better than my spiderbox, but it also was much heavier and didn't have as much leg room so I sold it to a friend and kept the Yerf.

But I can say, I don't see the other buggy style doing what GX150's is doing in those pics either, that's why I'm not getting rid of mine anytime soon.

[satoys]

Tom, I like your insight as a shop owner.
The other factor is how the buggy will be used. I'm guessing the yerf line was made cheap, sold cheap for those that wanted something, but probably rode it for less than a year, then parked it in the back yard. I've bought 5 now (for around 100$), and all fit that description. I'm prone to buy cheap, build up, and by the time I'm done, I know the buggy really well. I'm also not a hard rider, and won't let anyone using them abuse them, but that's just me. Others want to really punish them. In those cases, I'd agree, If you like to drive hard, don't like to tinker, spend the money. If you drive hard, like to tinker, buy low and build up.

[x-bird]

ditto, no offense taken, in fact I love making fun of my yerf, especially since it's a "lowly" 3203. The "lines" of it and the spiderboxes are just so correct for a buggy compared to the "pug nose" top-heavy style of most of the others--don't mean to offend anyone, just my opinion. Hopefully when mine's done, it'll still have most of the performance pluses of the original spiderboxes (ok, so its a carter powered/geared setup lol) and won't be too heavy.

[GX150]

It really does make a big difference where and how you ride. I never had problems with the Yerf 150 front end, yet am replacing ball joints annually in my Joyner 250. Although I did upgrade Wheels, a-arm tabs, ball joints and spindles on the Yerf, I have also had to replace both upper and lower a-arms, one hub and two rims on the front of the Joyner.

Without a design that puts the wheels in the far corners of the frame and 12" or more pan clearance, I could not ride the trails I have locally and would constantly have frame contact. These trails are all technical and speeds go from crawl to 20 mph. Rocks and roots are typical on the trails and they are never bladed smooth, so big tires are a necessity (22's on the Yerf and 25's on the Joyner). Tighter turning in a smaller package would help, but not if I had to give up the above.

[x-bird]

GX, where are you at? Sounds like my terrain. One reason i widened and pushed out the yerf's stance up front was to have the room to improve the turning radius and get bigger tires on it. Kept getting stuck in the same corner, same tree every lap. on rare occasions i could just eke by but usually bent the steering arm at the same time.

[SYCARMS]

GX150 kinda sounds like when we hit the trails in missouri at the bash. Lot of rock big ruts and maybe 20mph top speed. It is a different ride and fun but I still prefer going all out on the trails while ocasionally catching some air. All and all just give me a place to ride and I'm like a hog in slop. Satoys I don't let anyone beat my buggy either even though I do, but then again I am the one who has to work on it so I can do as I please. If someone wants to ride a buggy hard then go for it but buy your own. When I first got these I would let people come over and ride them and they would ride them like they stole them. I would be replacing parts when they nailes a 36" diameter stump 3 feet out of the ground then laugh and say man these things are a blast then procede to tell me to put some heat to straiten.
. After the second time or warning them of hazzards to no avail I stopped letting people ride them. Lesson learned. I really have to know the person to let them ride now.


TOM

[GX150]

I'm in the Pacific Northwest with little open ground but a lot of glacial till, trees and elevation deviations. Very similar trails to St Joe Park in MO, but the only maintenance done to my trails is reactive after washouts or blow downs (soon to change).

[T3beatz]

yeah, I don't see to many manco/industrial style engine go karts getting trough that stuff gx150! We took a Manco intruder, Intruder II, and a Yerf 3203 down to St. Joe last year... My manco intruder was the only one to come out alive, but it was not fun... The yerf (with the single a-arm completely broke, had to re-weld). And my friends Intruder II hit a tree will trying to dodge some rocks, lol. That is when I made the switch to the mini buggy and they soon followed. Right now we are trying to get our buggies prepared for the Buggy Bash this year, I don't want to drive down only to have something break or go bad.

I don't let anyone ride my buggy anymore either... I let my brothers wife ride my old manco dingo, she got a little happy and flipped it (stepped on gas instead of break) she was in the hospital for a couple days with a bad concussion, even though she had my helmet on. Next, just after racing around the street with my friend it started to get dark and we had no break lights at the time. Well, my other friends wife really wanted to ride, I had to run in the house to get something so I let her drive... well when I come back out (no more than 1-2 mins later) down at the end of the street we see my buggy go rolling over upside down.

turns out she was driving and her husband was in the passenger seat, they were racing my other friend, he was out front and came to a left hand turn. He knew to break, she didn't! She swerved past him and hit the turn hard at speed, rolling the buggy into someones mailbox! Good thing the house was empty, we all ran down to help, they got out the buggy and we flipped it over. She was pretty banged up but alert, he was fine, the buggy had now gained it's first bumps, bruises and scratches! The steering wheel was knocked outa whack, and the front tires blew out. From that day on I stopped letting anyone drive my buggy... you can ride in the passenger seat but you can't drive, unless you plan on putting up some $$ if you break it.

anyone notice the trend... two ladies, no experience, and one dumb me.

[SYCARMS]

Life itself is one big learing curve

TOM

[satoys]

Can we start the women driver jokes here ? Either of them blonde? Then we can can get 2 for 1 jokes....
(since none were hurt that is)

[satoys]

I got educated by my neighbors grandsons ~15 years old. They came over christmas holidays, rode my 3200, had a great time, laughing, posting a vid to utube, and thanking me when they left.
Went out the next day, found a bent t post, bent a-arm, and 50$ and several hours later I had it back running. Still can't believe they did not own up to it right then. Decided then no matter how good of kids they are, watch them close and hold them accountable (if they I do let them ride again, still have not decided).

[T3beatz]

Originally Posted by satoys

Can we start the women driver jokes here ? Either of them blonde? Then we can can get 2 for 1 jokes....
(since none were hurt that is)

The funny thing is once they got out of the buggy when it rolled, I knew they were alive... I immediately flipped the buggy over and started accessing the damage on it and not them, lol ! I put the mail box back in the hole, (good thing it was just a cheap one with a wooden post) then I pushed the buggy back home to avoid any backlash from the neighbors.

we have about 40-50+ acres out behind my house (city owned) with trails that we just got done riding on, I like to hit the flat streets to throw the left over mud from my wheels, that's what got it all started.

[SYCARMS]

I grew up being taught that you treated others stuf like your own, but today is different. Have a neighbor who's a hell af a guy, he borrows a jack or stands but never brings them back I have to go get them. Stopped. They now get one chance and if they don't get it right it doesn't happen a second time. And I am no longer silent on the issue I will tell them no then why. If they don't like it TOO BAD.

TOM

[satoys]

Originally Posted by SYCARMS

I grew up being taught that you treated others stuf like your own, but today is different. Have a neighbor who's a hell af a guy, he borrows a jack or stands but never brings them back I have to go get them. Stopped. They now get one chance and if they don't get it right it doesn't happen a second time. And I am no longer silent on the issue I will tell them no then why. If they don't like it TOO BAD.

TOM

Amen....

[metalstudman1]

I'm blown away with the LACK of respect others have with borrowed stuff-I'm the old fart because I won't let friends play on our stuff anymore after the same treatment all of you have recieved.Amazingly my kid's have yet to do any serious damage to our toys- I pat them on the back and thank them for this regularly for their repect to me as the builder and for the equipments longevity. - My 7 yr. old has called me over several times to let me know something doesn't sound or feel right and she's been right!!!
If I ever borrowed something the rule was from a child -return it promptly and in better shape than it was loaned out whenever possible (wash the car,more gas than it had in it,ect..).

[SYCARMS]

Honesty and repsect I'm afraid are a thing of the past. Most kids today are not taught either. Seems people today are taught to take advantage of the next guy. My son had a few of his friends show up with just their helmets leaving their atv at home. My son asked if they could drive one of the buggies I had for sale. I told him they could drive anything as long as they owned it. One parent had the nerve to ask if his son could drive one of the new buggies since they were considering to buy one. I looked at his Honda 4 wheeler and then asked if Honda let him take it for a ride before he bought it. He just looked at me. I then asked if he would still give me what I wanted for it after 20 people had driven it, no answer. I'm sure I was the main topic of their conversation on their way home.


TOM

[Tosser]

I picked up two 150cc buggies last night. Both look like they need work. One started with no problem and seems to only have cosmetic issues (other than being full of spoiled gas).

The other one was being run in reverse and forced into forward by the prior owner's kids trying to do wheelies. The gears were ruined and the gearbox was removed. I have a box of parts and think everything is inside but I am going to have to do some learning before I can fix it.

For the bad buggy, I am thinking about taking the old motor out and just replacing it with a new one if I can't fix it. Any idea if the buggies use a gy6 short case or long case?

[T3beatz]

They use the gy6 short case... I'm sure you'll be able to fix it. If it starts you should be fine, and if it has the external gearbox you can find them on ebay for as low as 90 bucks. I remember seeing just the parts for the gearboxes but I don't remember where.

gearbox - http://www.ebay.com/itm/GY6-150cc-Re...7adc85&vxp=mtr

again, back to what we were talking about earlier... not taking care of your stuff, why would you go in reverse and then force it forward just to pop wheelies? That's bad, I would have sold it or took it from them right after I saw them doing it the first time, and if they wanted a buggy made them buy there own!

Can you post some pics of the buggies you got?

[SYCARMS]

Buggies use the short case.Unless the crank or rod is bad they are an easy rebuild.

[Tosser]

Thanks guys. Here is a pic from the craigslist ad. I'll have to take some more detailed pics. They are both the same. They are labelled Eppella but they appear to be a chinese buggy marketed mostly in Germany. They look like a Roketa style.

[T3beatz]

Looks good from the pic... many buggies of that style, parts should not be too hard to fine, some of them are interchangeable.

[buggypowermaker]

ive only owned mancos and the one baja i owned broke the moter in two days.manco ones never break