Spiderbox Electrical Help,,PLEASE HELP!!

[Tejhummer]

I have a spiderbox, and i replaced the starter, chassis harness, engine harness, and it wont turn over. I shorted the brake interlock, just connected the two wires, electrical taped the power switch together, and did the same for the push button start.

Tapped the positive battery connection and nothing happened
Could it be the
CDI?

I have a little box that is about an inch square that like 5 wires connect to, could it be that?

Battery is good, Please Help!!

[metalstudman1]

Welcome- sounds like the little box is the regulator/rectifier- it has to be connected to the harness for the complete system to power up. Take some pic's of what you've hooked up and left-over, in question parts for us to further help you get it right.

[Tejhummer]

This is the little black box

[Tejhummer]

http://s1168.photobucket.com/albums/...t=59562647.jpg

Heres the link

[metalstudman1]

That box is a relay-not part of a Spiderbox electrical system. Is the motor a Howhit?

[Tejhummer]

Yes It is, I have shorted to my starter and it cranks but hen I short the power and ignition switch, nothing

[metalstudman1]

What is the relay connected to?
Providing a direct power source to the starter is a good test to see if it's working. Don't know what the relay does or what buggy it came from or how it's wired, this could be the problem.
See if this you can wire it up per the factory diagram. Start at the engine and verify the wires match their intended location.

[Tejhummer]

Ya 1 wire goes to positive directly, one to starter directly, one to chassis harness one to positive that is fused 15 amps, one fused out and back in, idk. Where does the starter relay go, I haven't seen that.

[metalstudman1]

The starter relay is another name for the solenoid.

[Tejhummer]

Where is that located?

[metalstudman1]

This is almost impossible to resolve without posting pic's & you don't know what part is what!!!!-We don't know what you have and don't have!! Like the relay pic that doesn't belong to your system, there could be other components missing or added, We have no idea what the previous owner tried to repair & how. If you'll post a pic of what electrical you have hooked up and the in-question parts, we'll be able to visually identify the parts.
I'd refrain from taping switches and plug ends together- you could easily burn things up even with just touching the batteries positive terminal.

[T3beatz]

I agree with MSM, that black box doesn't come with the stock spiderboxes. Post up a few pics of your system and maybe we can help you a little better.

[SYCARMS]

The starter relay will be in the electrical box in eng compartment. It will have 2 studs and a 2 wire pigtail. The pos from the battery goes to one of the studs on solenoid then from the other stud the wire goes to the starter. The pigtail plugs into the main harness which 2 smaller wires go to the ign switch. My yerf has a relay like that for the headlights.

[Tejhummer]

More pics posted, hope some of them help. By the way, where do those two hoses go?? Sorry for all the teardown, its time for a new paint job.

http://s1168.photobucket.com/albums/r497/tejhummer/

[metalstudman1]

Tom- I don't believe that relay has anything to do with the lights, someone may have tried to use it as a starter solenoid since the wires are of such a large gauge & the yellow/red wire is the one that go to the pig-tail for the solenoid.I could be wrong!!!!!
It appears you need a voltage regulator(must have) & starter solenoid from what I can see from your pic's. Both items are fairly inexpensive. Hope some of the descriptive pic's help you locate what needs to go where. I still can't postively identify what wires you have and where they are going. Try and trace down what you have and see if any of it matches the diagram and let's see what's left over. We'll keep trying to help you!!!!

I only saw 1 hose disconnected (master cylinder reservoir) What/where is the other hose?

[Tejhummer]

The other reservoir hose is just not pictured. So, I have another rectifier. Is that the same as the voltage regulator? If so, I have a new black one. I ordered another starter relay and will proceed to trace the wires and diagnose the problem. When I try to start it, should I only touch the start button wires together and leave the other two unconnected?
Thanks to everyone for all the input, especially msm for all the input and picture labeling!

[metalstudman1]

Voltage regulator is another name for rectifier!!FYI- voltage regulator/rectifiers have fins for cooling, so if the other black thing you have doesn't have fins/heat sink it's not it. If you think the push button is bad and want to test - starting by touching the wires is okay, just verify which one of the 4 wires goes to the CDI as that will be the kill wire that goes to the green switch, the other wire to that switch is a ground wire- when these 2 wires are connected it shorts out the CDI from firing.
You should have only 1 reservoir hose- if you take a pic of the other hose in question we might be able to figure out what & where it goes.

[Tejhummer]

Well, thanks to all the great input, and thanks again, I have got it cranking.

Now it just doesn't want to hit. I have spark, compression, but I can't seem to get fuel.

I don't know what the problem could be. I bought a new carb, but I'm not sure it's hoses are going to the right places.

Is there a diagram or it it a hit and miss type thing. I have seen the blue and red diagram, but it was not crazy helpful, no offense to the person who made it.

Could someone please explain it to me or take a picture of theirs. It would be GREATLY appreciated.

[metalstudman1]

Looking at the carb from the rear of the buggy-
left lower front- inlet fuel line
right side closer to the throttle cable is the vacuum line to the intake manifold
upper left side is a vent to air
bottom of the bowl is an over flow line when you want to drain the bowl (by loosening the the screw)

Hope this helps!!

[Tejhummer]

Well those lok right, does the bowl drain hose "t" into the other one going to the manifold when it's not being used to drain?

Why could it not be getting gas. It's a new carb, and new hoses? What gives?

[metalstudman1]

There shouldn't be a "T" in the drain line.The "T" would have went from the carb to the intake manifold & the stock air box. Did you verify you have fuel flow?, by disconnecting the line into the carb and watching it flow. Next connect it back up to the carb and open the drain screw(bottom of the bowl) and verify that fuel flows out the drain hose to know the bowl is getting full.
FYI- The cap on the gas tank has a vent on a plastic rod, these vent rods can break due to rough riding and stop up the fuel outlet.

[Tejhummer]

Yes, I did check the bowl drain screw, it was getting gas. Could it be timing?

[Tejhummer]

The cylinder isn't getting gas, so it still could e a gas issue, I guess it's better to solve this before timing diagnosis.

[SYCARMS]

Usually if the engine uses a vacume T it has a vacume operated fuel pump at the bottom of the fuel tank. Mine as most yerfs just had a nipple from the tank but I have seen some with the pump, don't know if they come with them or someone put them on. The vacume T will connect the vacume hoses to the manifold vacume supply, the air bleed valve on right side of carb and the fuel pump. Make sure the gas in your tank is good gas, the ethanol blended gas will go bad and not want to burn. Check the valve lash they do not loosed up with wear as many believe, the valve lash will decreas as the valves are pounded into the seats over time to where usually the intake valve will not fully close. You may also want to run a compression check to see if you have suitable compression to start the engine.

[Tejhummer]

Are you saying that the manifold creates a vaccuum and sucks the gas in? Because I still have the T connector in the line and if I still have that then at would be messing up the vaccuum.

[Tejhummer]

I do have compression! So that's good, but the bleed hose off of the bowl is the only bleeder I know of.

[SYCARMS]

If your buggy has the vacume operated fuel pump which is recognised by the 2 hoses going to it. The diaphram inside is spring loaded, when the piston is on its downward travel it creates vacume which sucks down on the diaphram thus allowing fuel to fill its chamber. As the piston starts its upward travel vacume is lost thus allowing the spring to release the diaphram forcing the fuel out of the chambet to the carb. What I need to know is 1) Do you have a nipple out of the fuel tank or the vacume pump with 2 nipples. 2) what is your compression is PSI.

[Tejhummer]

The gas tank has a hole i put the hose into. It travels down to e carb, right above the bowl, the n goes out to the air intake right beside where the carb meets the air intake on the engine. From the carb to the engine there is a T in the line. I am thinking that when the cylinder tries to pull gas, it is just pulling air because it has that T in it and can't suck it in because that T just pulls in air.

Is this possible?
I don't have my compression psi, I did the finger over the spark plug test.

[SYCARMS]

Since what you described to me tells me you do not have a pump. A fuel line will run from the fuel tank to the fuel bowl of the carb. Thats it! The other which is vacume line, will run from the intake manifold to the air bleed valve on the right side of the carb. If you do not have a nipple for vacume at the air bleed which some carbs do not have then just plug the vacume line at the intake. Putting your finger over the plug hole does not tell you that you have enough compression for the engine to run. I would suggest that you purchase a gauge or take it to someone to check it for you. If you do not have at least 115 psi it won't matter what else you do to it 90% chance it won't run and if it does by chance it will run poorly since it will not have the power.

[Tejhummer]

Stupid question, but here goes nothing

How does the fuel get to the engine itself? I have fuel to the carb, but not to the cylinder and this has to be my problem.

[SYCARMS]

The only questions which are stupid are those not asked. At idle engine vacume created by the downward movement of the piston in a sound engine creates a vacume which sucks air in through the venturi creating a negative pressure which sucks up fuel through the pilot jet then into the cylinder to be burned. Now if any fuel orifice is plugged including jet, fuel will not be delivered into the cylinder. Also if compression is not adequate due to worn rings or leaking valves sufficient negative pressure will not pull fuel from the bowl. This is why I stated earlier you must have basic functions which are compression, fuel, air and spark at the correct moment. If any one of those are missing the engine will not run. A finger in the plug hole will tell you nothing, you need to know how much compression you have. A perfectly sound GY6 will have 155 to 160 psi. They will run on 120psi but are usually very hard to get started and will not have much power.You can beat your head against a wall and still not find your problem. You need the tools to do the job. When you go to the doctor he has tools for checking vitals. Blood pressure machine and thermometer, scale. Basic tools. Your engine is not much different. If you don't have adequate compression you can replace plugs, carbs whatever but until you fix the problem it will not run at all or run right. Get a compression gauge and check the compression. Read the instructions that come with it and it will tell you where your loss is if so. Once you know the compression then you can go from there.

TOM

[Tejhummer]

Okay, so compression test is a must, will do tommorow. But, what about timing? What is the test to see if your timing is correct. Could the woodruff key be sheared?

[SYCARMS]

Remove flywheel fan cover on right side of engine, remove valve cover. Rotate flywheel so that the hash lines and or small holes on cam sprocket is paralell with top of head and large hole points to seat back, then look at the flywheel, the T should line up with the pointer.

[Tejhummer]

Sorry for not posting lately, but I have not been able to work on it.

I am totally confused, I have checked and set the timing, installed a new carb, Cdi, rectifier, starter, both harnesses, spark wire, spark plug, and everything else except th engine itself, and nothing.

It cranks but it wolnt turn over. Used starting fluid, but still no.
So only one question remains...what now?

[T3beatz]

compression, have you checked it for compression?

[Tejhummer]

I will tommorow, I think Sycarms, (I hope I spelled it right) said th same thing but it just slipped my mind. If it has low compression, what then?

[T3beatz]

the least, new rings... not really expensive and it takes a couple hours to do. but if you have it apart you might as well trow on one of the 58.5mm Big Boar Kits they are a direct swap and they give you a little extra power, not too expensive they can be purchased for around 70-100 bucks in various places.
That's only if you have low compression.

[Tejhummer]

When you say new rings, what are you referring to? And do you have a link for the big boar kit?
Thanks for the help!

[T3beatz]

New rings, are the piston rings on the piston, to get to them you have to take the head of the engine off gaining access to the piston. The rings could be bad, or the inside of the head itself could be bad, like if a small foregn object got sucked down there it would scratch things up pretty bad messing up the seal between the rings and the walls inside the head, then the compression would drop drastically.

Just think of it like a Syringe, if anything happens to the ringed part that pushes are pulls the fluids there will be no compression.

This is what the rings look like... http://www.ebay.com/itm/157QMJ-GY6-1...ht_2806wt_1397

BBK, This is what a BBK looks like.. you will have no support if you buy these so you might want to get with Tom (Sycarms) if you want service after the sell.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOOTER-150C...#ht_500wt_1180

[Tejhummer]

Guys, my compression is just barely hitting 30
What now? Sell it all for parts and start again or what, I really don't want to dig into the engine.

[T3beatz]

It won't cost a lot to fix it, break the head down and see what ya got you'd be surprised at how easy it is to change things out.
But if you want to part it out I can understand that too.

[Tejhummer]

So is replacing the rings a big deal?

[Tejhummer]

What ring sizes do I need?

[SYCARMS]

The rings are easy to replace. You can go to the American Sport Works web site and download the service manual fot the GY6. You would find it under the 7150 model. Its pretty detailed. The only special tools needed are a torque wrench and some .003 and .005 feeler gauges. The first time you do it might take an hour or two.

TOM

[T3beatz]

57mm, the howhits are smaller than most gy6 150's.

[Tejhummer]

Would that solve the problem? Or would it be knocking out possible problems?
Thanks so much for the info!!

[Tejhummer]

When I ordered my carb, I ordered one for a gy6. Could that be an issue? Should it be a howhit Gy6 carb?

[T3beatz]

wont know until you open it up and see... the piston rings can be bad, or it can be the Jug (the cylinder can have bad scrapes on it), or it can be both.

Another thing to check is the valves, make sure the clearance is set correctly (.003 to .005 of in inch) there is a guide on youtube of how to do this, it takes about 20 mins to do.

The carb makes no difference, that is not the issue.

[Tejhummer]

Would this work?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150cc-GY6-En...d09619&vxp=mtr

[T3beatz]

yep that should work.

[Tejhummer]

Is the engine head 2.5 inches or 3

[T3beatz]

I don't know off the top of my head, did you try measuring it?

[Tejhummer]

I will. Thanks!

[Tejhummer]

Just a random question while waiting for a part to come in, when I turn my wheels, shouldn't my piston move up and down?

[T3beatz]

No the piston should not move, the clutch won't engage until it spins a a certain rpm.

[Tejhummer]

Ok, good, I was starting to think I had another problem.
Thanks!

[Tejhummer]

T3, just another side question , what speeds can you get out of your buggy with all of your upgrades?

[T3beatz]

I'm pretty slow, on the street mine tops out at around 30mph, (the 39T sprocket kills your speed), but I can pull anything out of the trails! lol, My engine needs new life, it's getting old (I bought it used and I've put hundreds of miles on it, a new head and some new bearings will work wonders!).

If you wan't more speed you'll want the BBK, and stick with a smaller sprocket (31T, 35T, 36T).

My engine just has minimum upgrades that make it run a little better, the speed difference it gives is marginal +or_ 5mph

My little brother on the other hand, with the stock sprocket and a reverse gearbox, along with the 58.5mm BBK can get up to about 37-39mph.

[Tejhummer]

I got the cylinder in and now have to install new rings. Sycarms suggested the manuals, but the don't deem to describe all five rings. Any help?

[T3beatz]

I'll look around and see what I can find and update this later.

[Tejhummer]

So I followed the gy6 guide that Sycarms gave. I got it all put back together and GUESS WHAT!! No compression ....rings are new , new gaskets, new cylinder, new piston.
What now?..........

[T3beatz]

did you set the Valves also?

Is it hard to turn over by hand from the fan side or the variator side? (you have to take the covers off to get to either side).

With a new cylinder, piston, and rings if all is done correctly you should be getting some compression.

[Tejhummer]

Clockwise the flywheel is semi difficult to turn. It can be done with 1 hand, but with 1 it is a little hard. Counter clockwise it is decently hard.

I did not set the valves. But wouldn't it get more than 10 psi of compression even if the valves weren't set?

[SYCARMS]

If you pull the spark plug the engine can be turned over easily with one hand. If your valves are adjusted out of time then the valves will be open at the wrong time. Check and make sure the timming is correct.

TOM

[Tejhummer]

The timing is strange. There is a mark on the flywheel that looks like this. l T F l

It is a line , the the letter t then the letter f then another line. When I line the line before the t up with the marker point on the casing, ( I'm guessing that t means tdc ) then I turn the cam shaft until the hole in the cam sprocket is parallel with the piston and I reattach the chain.

Am I doing something wrong

[T3beatz]

The cam shaft sprocket has 3 holes... You want the two small ones to be aligned with the head and the big one will be pointing out, But you also have to make sure the TDC line on the flywheel is matched up too.

Good video here with a breakaway engine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1pJBft5iN4

[Tejhummer]

So my timing is right, how do I reset the valves?

[SYCARMS]

Once in the timed position, adjust the intake to .003" and the exhaust to .005" using feeler gauges. Loosen the locknut and turn adjusting screw until feeler gauge has a snug pull. Adjustment is made on a cold engine.

[T3beatz]

Did you get it all worked out?

[Luckyhermit]

This pics in this thread will no doubt help me out a lot in the next few weeks.