such thing as perfect idle???

[supertoast92]

OK well since the thread I "hijacked" didn't seem to include the entire subject of the idle problems (well, more like annoyances than problems), I decided to start a new thread here. The kart runs great, just ordered that new muffler since the one I have is just about gutted, and a new starter since the current one is weakening. It's just the idle that's becoming my pet-peeve now. Here are some symptoms/annoyances I find related to the idle on the Helix:

• Kart will not start cold unless I give it some gas. This is probably normal for many karts, though. I'm just what you call a semi-perfectionist...
• Once started cold, the kart will not idle without sputtering out and stalling unless I give it a hearty bit of gas from the throttle for at least 10 seconds. Then if I get lucky, it will idle but at a very low rpm.
• Idle in general seems to be a bit shaky and unsteady, especially when engine is cold. Again, this is probably normal but I would love to get it fixed if possible (and if it's a cheap or even free solution)
• Sometimes the idle seems fine when I stop, but after sitting for 10 seconds or so it decides to rocket up into the engaged clutch zone. Mostly happened before when I only fiddled with the idle stop screw rather than the air mixture screw.
• And now since I just recently realized there was more than the throttle screw I could play with I'm trying to find the ideal setting for the air mixture screw. Just started fiddling with it about a month ago.

Bascially I'm trying to find the perfect adjustment that would let me brake to a stop without the kart stalling and without me having to "spoon-feed" the kart with the throttle, whether cold or hot. Probably not an easy thing to do without paying for aftermarket parts, though.

[JakeTheSnake]

If you have an automatic choke and it's sticking, which sounds like some of your symptoms, all the fine tuning in the world on the air mixture screw isn't going to help.

[johnnyjaws]

im haveing the same!! problem

[supertoast92]

Originally Posted by JakeTheSnake

If you have an automatic choke and it's sticking, which sounds like some of your symptoms, all the fine tuning in the world on the air mixture screw isn't going to help.

I was wondering if that could be the problem. Is there an easy way to diagnose and/or fix?

Just took the kart for a spin, thought I had the kart finally tuned right but by the time I was done riding and the engine was hot, the idle started taking off again. Had to back off on the throttle screw, which probably means hard time running when cold. A sticking choke could mean higher rpm's once warmed up, right (or lower, like the manual choke I'm so familiar with on lawn equipment)?

[olderthan]

a sticking choke
gives motor to much gas

[BuggyMaster]

First question: what mods are on it?

The carburetors on the ASW machines are their weak spot. There is no one setting that works for all machines. Each machine will need their own settings. It seems to me that 1 out of about 5 of these machines has a crappy carb on them.

Here's the kicker: All of the 150cc GY6 carbs are not created equally. About the only thing consistent is the fact that they will mount from machine to machine.

For example, I have a brand new helix here (the one for sale in my for sale thread). It had the second carb in a year that I have seen that is just a piece of crap carb. I replaced it with another carb (new) that was intended for a scooter. As expected, it had a very lean main jet, a 102, in it and it has a 35 pilot in it. The stock Helix carries a 114 main and a 34 pilot. Experience shows me that the 114 runs very lean in these so I always suggest to put about a 125 main in it in stock form to keep them from running lean. There are reports of engines blowing and typically it is because of this lean running.

Now...you would think that all I would need to do with this new carb is swap my jets over, right? No! I put the 114 main in it and left the 35 pilot. Ran it, checked the plug and it was running on the fat side (rich). That's with the same 114 that typically will run lean in the carbs that come factory on the Helix. What I wound up doing was taking the 102 main and running a drill bit through it that was smaller than the 114 and my guess is that the jet is now about a 110 or so. Guess what. It created one of the nicest looking burns on the plug that I have ever seen. It likes the 110 in the carb that was made for a scooter.

What this whole thing does is confirm that despite the outside appearance of all GY6 carbs looking the same, the internal porting can be (and usually is) very different among different manufacturers.

Now..that said, this buggy is one of the nicest starting buggies ever as well. As a spectacular idle. Better than our personal Helix. Doesn't matter if it is cold or hot, it is rather nice.

On our personal Helix, I think I have a 128 in it with the only mod being the CDI and it burns beautifully. If I ran that 128 in this scooter carb, it would never run. However, with ours, you typically have to give it a little gas when you start it and if you take it out for a wide open run and then come to a stop, it may stall out on you if you don't lightly feather the gas a little bit. I think this has to do with the bowl level being lower when we stop due to the long high speed run. Don't know for sure, and really don't care. I expect it to act like that under those conditions. In fact, knowing what I know about the carbs ASW uses,, it doesn't do anything that I don't expect it to do.

For your particular problem there are a few things that you should know that may better help you understand what it is supposed to be doing. A carb is made of many different circuits. Idle circuit being one of those. Your pilot jet handles most of the task of idle and your main butterfly valve works with it. Remember that your needle (the one that sits in the main jet) doesn't really start opening until you are under a heavier load. The butterfly valve that your throttle is connected to is providing the air, and the pilot jet providing the fuel (both required for an engine to run). As you open that butterfly valve more (i.e. step on the gas or turn your idle screw higher), you will eventually get to a point where the needle will start raising out of the main jet and some fuel will be provided by that main jet. For you to correctly set your idle, idle settings need to be made below the point where that needle starts raising out of the main jet.

If you have any kind of blockage in the idle circuit, be it in the pilot jet or the ports that the fuel runs through past the pilot jet, it's not going to idle. Some people wind up cranking up the idle screw which eventually will raise the needle out of the main jet and provide fuel and once you are at that point, your idle will be high..usually enough to engage the clutch. If you are getting that high to engage it, I question whether or not your idle screw is much too high. Just remember, you want your idle settings to be made below-the-bar (so to speak) of where the needle will start being raised out of the main jet.

All of tha said, you need to come up with a baseline. Some where to start. It typically will take two people because you want one person running the gas pedal and keeping it running until you find the sweet spot. Be forwarned that if you try to operate the throttle manually at the carb, you stand the chance of the cable coming off partially and raising the RPM's enough that the buggy will take off (don't ask me how I know).

Don't forget that the ASW machines have a nuetral position, use it.

There is an idle mixture screw and an idle screw. The idle screw is near where the cable connects to the carb. The idle mixture screw is on the left side of the carb (when standing behind the buggy and looking forward) and towards the front of that side. Some of them are capped off and that cap would beed to be pulled but since you have already tinkered with yours, I don't think that is a problem for you.

Take the mixture screw and turn it all the way in (click-wise) until it bottoms out and note the orientation of the screw slot. From this point I will turn that screw one and a half turns out. This is my baseline. I will have my helper start the buggy and slowly let off the gas. I will turn the idle screw up until the machine will idle by itself, even if it is a high idle. At this point, I now have control of the idle and I don't want my helper touching the gas. I will back off the idle screw till it either idles where I want it to or it stalls.

If it idles at an RPM that I like, I will move over to the mixture screw and turn it a half turn in. Your goal is to find the point in the mixture screw setting where it idles the best. If it starts barfing as I turn it in, I know I went the wrong way, I will then back it out a half turn at a time until it no longer is getting a better idle. Mind you, you may be having to make idle screw adjustments as well. If turning it out raises the idle above what I want it to be, I will back off the idle screw and then go back to the mixture screw and continue. You want to find the best idle point with the mixture screw and then no more than that point. So if at two and a half turns out it idles fantastic and at 3 turns out it idles no better, there is no point in keeping it 3 turns out, put it back at 2.5 and be done with it.

If the machine stalled when I turned the idle screw down, then I will go back to the mixture screw and go a full turn out (so now I will be at 2.5 turns out from bottomed out), turn the idle screw back up, have my helper start it and slowly let off and try again.

Now...if you find that it takes upwards of four turns out to get it to idle, that means your pilot jet is too small. You may be able to get away with it like that but I had one like that and the spring tension on the mixture screw was too little to hold it in place, and it fell out into never-to-be-found-again-land. At this point you would need to go to a 35 pilot jet and you'd likely find your mixture screw liking 1.5 turns out instead of 4.

With all of this said, remember that some carbs from ASW are simply duds. I have two of them sitting here that I use for spare parts. Just bad machining.

Hope this helps, tired of typing.

[BuggyMaster]

P.S. a non functioning choke will cause problems when hot. There is a thread in the tech section somewhere that shows how that thing works. When cold, the plunger is all the way out of the hole. As it heats up, it slowly extends thus blocking off the choke fuel supply. When they go bad, they never extend so the choke fuel supply is always there.

[supertoast92]

Thank you very much, definitely lots of information to work with! I tried reading the manual's way of adjusting the idle, doesn't really help when the grammar isn't understandable. Guess they don't really want you fiddling with it. As if it matters now, I'm way past my warranty. Had this baby for 3-4 years now

Quick question - should I warm the engine up first before making the adjustments, or does it not matter?

Oh and almost forgot to answer your question - only mod is the headlight system I put in, on a switch. Idle doesn't seem to be affected whether the light (just a single 55 watter) is on or not. CVT asm, starter asm were both replaced by ASW stock parts.

[BuggyMaster]

It absolutely matters. It needs to be fully warmed up. This also eliminates the choke from interferring (provided it is working correctly)

[supertoast92]

Originally Posted by BuggyMaster

It absolutely matters. It needs to be fully warmed up. This also eliminates the choke from interferring (provided it is working correctly)

Thought so, thanks!

[johnnyjaws]

Yes thanks a bunch

[supertoast92]

I was out messing with it a bunch today, starting out with 1.5 turns and started working my way in. Interestingly enough, the kart ran better the richer I made the mixture (that's screwing the air mixture screw in, right?). I'm beginning to wonder if it's the cheap aftermarket spark plug I got that's making the idle seem to be choppy. It almost sounds like it's struggling to idle above what it currently is at. Good news is it doesn't stall. I'm still trying to configure it so the idle doesn't consistently increase the longer the kart sits.

Maybe I'll take a video of it tomorrow to show exactly what I'm having difficulty explaining.

[SYCARMS]

Some thing that is often overlooked is the valve adjustment. I have worked on a couple of carbides that would not idle and would fluctuate. The valves were found to be too tight. Once adjusted the carb adjusted fine and the buggy ran better than ever. Never anticipate that the valves were adjusted correctly at the factory. TOM

[BuggyMaster]

The farther in, the leaner it gets.

Tom makes a good point too and that is something I forgot about. There is a reason you are supposed to do a valve adjustment after break in. The valve seats can sink slightly from new which raises their physical height in relation to the rocker arms. When that happens, your valve lash tightens up and can get to the point where you have none.

[supertoast92]

Yikes, was that part of the instructions for the break-in?? Only thing we did was change the break-in oil. It's been 3 years since we bought this kart new at TS, never touched the valves, let alone knowing how to adjust them in the first place.

Guess my kart likes to run pretty lean as the screw only sits at 1/4 from all the way in. Anything else further out and it seems to sputter then regain itself over and over again. I've also noticed when I come to a stop (not even an abrupt stop, even coasting to when the clutch disengages) that kart is struggling to run unless I tap the gas real quick. Funny how the Baja Warrior idled so perfectly, cold or hot.

[supertoast92]

I'm still chasing that idle down. It's just not a steady idle. I can't figure out whether it's too rich or too lean; no matter where I set the air mixture screw it does the same unstable idle. I'll get a video once we get the charging system back up again, because I think that could be part of the problem.

[SYCARMS]

Your plug will tell you if your running lean or rich. The video will help us see and hear what you see and hear. TOM

[chuckorlando]

3yrs and no valve adjustment... I check mine before every big ride. Just like the oil being changed.

[supertoast92]

Originally Posted by chuckorlando

3yrs and no valve adjustment... I check mine before every big ride. Just like the oil being changed.

Yeah, I'm sure there are many adjustments I probably should have made a long time ago... Is it a difficult procedure to adjust the valves? I've changed out parts in the CVT and replaced the starter motor asm, that's just about it for what I've done tearing down the engine.

[SYCARMS]

Piece of cake. First make sure engine is cold since valves are adjusted cold and not after engine has been run.
A). Remove valve cover.
B). Remove fan cover, right side of engine, 2 screws & 2 bolts
C). Turn by hand clockwise via fan until the T on flywheel lines up with pointer on case
D). Observe cam for large hole to point strait at seat and lhash lines on cam sprocket are paralel with top of head. If cam is not in this position with engine at tdc on crank than rotate clockwise again to tdc on flywheel, cam should now be lined up as well.
E). With a .003 feeler gauge check the intake valve (top) adjust until snug fit of gauge.
F). With a .005 feeler gauge check the exhaust (bottom) and repeat step E.
Valves are now adjusted. First time may take one hour but after a few times it should only take 10 - 15 minutes. TOM

[chuckorlando]

Yea do what Tom posted. After you've done it your looking at 20min tops

[BuggyMaster]

If it is a Helix, we always pull the seat out. Makes it very easy to get to everything.

[mikesova@gmail.com]

Mine idles fine(I think), but I have a hard time finding a sweet spot between too high, where the clutch slightly engages and it wants move on its own (barely) and too low, where it can die while idling.

Is this normal on GY6 Kart? Mine's a Spiderbox if that makes any difference.

[Miamieddie]

You can also go to YouTube and type in (how to adjust valves on a gy6). It will show you exactly the way sy arms explained it. It might be more understanding.