How much tubing is needed.....

[GDAccent]

Hello,

So I want to attempt to build this go cart/mini buggy that was built and posted on nitrostreet.com some of you may have seen it.



Edit: Added 5-17-12 8:24p Here is his original webpage on it...forgot to share it http://www.nitrostreet.com/gocart.html

So he has put specs on his webpage of the size/dimensions of it, but doesn't say how much tubing he used.

Would 50ft. be too much? not enough? and I figured it may have been built using 1¼-1½" dia. Are there frame calculators for this type of thing?

Has anyone built anything similar to this that I can get an idea to look into?

Shamefull to admit, but I am a big guy of just under 300 lbs. So this cart was built using a KZ650 motor, not sure if I need that much power, but could a 250cc be ok? I plan on riding up hills to I want to make sure theres power to pull me up the hills.

Thanks for you time and suggestion. Any pics would be greatl apprectiated to see what others have made.


ThX

GDAccent

[x-bird]

if you check out "my yerf upgrade thread" around page 3 or 4 shows the roll cage and new front and rear tubing i did. I bought 50 foot and used probably 10-20 foot of previous tubing that i cut up and re-used. It's surprising how fast you go through it. I'd say that you're going to need close to 100 foot of tubing. don't know where you're at location wise, but www.PASteel.com has good pricing and several distribution centers the public can buy from directly.

[metalstudman1]

I saw this buggy when I joined here, I thought about building one similar too. A 250cc engine with the right size sprockets will carry you around pretty good. What style engine are you thinking? ATV engines have reverse!!!! but there's obstacles to over come- most are shaft drive. That particular buggy has about 60'-80' of tubing in it (my best guess with waste) it appears to be 1-1/4" but don't know the thickness/gauge. The biggest factor when buying tubing is the length you can transport & shop size you can work with. 20'+ lengths takes less because waste is smaller. Your type of bender also makes a huge difference- the HF type takes 8"-12" past the bend to get bent. If there's a buggy frame calculator out there I'd like to know where it is too!!!! Every build is custom!!!! having the support items first is the only way I can build- the engine,axle, wheel/tires,seat,pedal assembly,ect... as these items vary in size and needed mounting positions are critical for dimensioning the build.

[GDAccent]

Originally i had thought of looking into at least 50' of tubing. i live in Vancouver, WA just across river of Portland, OR. There is a place here called The Steel Yard that a guy at work recommended to look into. But 80-100 Ft sonds more likely closer. I had thought about trying my hand at Google Sketchup and see see if that will help to narrow down the amount needed. But yeas. these are all custom so i amsure it'll vary. And i was going to build it more to fit me and be a little more adjustable for the wife to drive too. Engine wise I had thought about a 250 motorcycle engine rather than a smaller engine. I want it to have enough power for up and down hills around here. nothing to steep. but ya know to make it fun. I think a 250cc should fine and maybe a 8-10" drive sprocket might be ok. things i know i will need to play around with.

Anyone try designing with CAD program? I am Hoping to get a start on this, this summer to play with. So we will see how it works out.

[x-bird]

Based on his "specs" i rough counted about 70-foot without getting into any of the smaller connector tubes. Those are the ones that will really eat up the length. Depending on the tube diameter, you lose between 1 to 2 inches per tube with notches on either end. A brand name ATV 250 with a manual or semi auto gearbox would probably suit your needs very well.

[GDAccent]

Thanks X-bird. i appreciate you checking that out. I can see it would be at least that now. makes sense. I will def. look into one of the motors. i want to hope to find a used one in working order. maybe gut out a quad from craigslist or something.

I'll let you guys know what I find.

[metalstudman1]

Your idea of finding an ATV is the way to go- You'll need all the electrical and some of the mounting hardware. Also when you buy the whole ATV you can verfiy it runs while it's still all hooked up correctly & label it when disassembly occurs- you won't be scratching your head later if you connect something up incorrectly and wonder "if" it really runs!!!!ask me how I know this happens!!!

[GDAccent]

Cools, good ideas as well. Well I took a stab at contacting the guy that built this blue beauty, and I got a response, actually twice. He says he used 1" tubing .090 wall for the straight lengths and .125 wall for the bent tubing. Didn't recall total length footage used. He built it over a 2 year span in no rush, just a side project. put about $2000 into it, but sold it for $4500. Said the $2k went into upgraded stuff. the engine was 30yrs. old that he got at a swap meet and finally had a use for it. Part some extra parts for it too.

So now I am on the hunt for a 250cc engine locally and or an ATV at very low cost. or other parts. There was a yamaha 250 for $200 ran listed on Craigslist, but it would have been quite a drive to go after it.

I have access to all the metal I would need for it. So that cost is free. Out of the specs he listed on his page. I can pretty much figure how to build it. My main problem I would think is the distance of the lower and upper arm suspensions. Here is a pic



To me it looks like no more than 8-10". I asked him about this but no response yet and also about the type of spindles he used.

Has anyone made their own spindles/hubs? Is there a guideline for making them? I guess it would depend on the wheels I would be using. Just curious. So this weekend I plan on cutting some metal and maybe some welding if time plays out. I'll try to grab some pics.

Thanks !!!

GDA

[metalstudman1]

IMO- the frame mount portion appears about 5" and the spindle itself appears about 6-1/2". I don't know if there's a standard- for a hub to travel vertically without toe-in or out is to have them the spaced the same distance at the frame and spindle. This A-arm set-up appears to have very little travel (4"-6"). It would be good for general driving but not to good for jumps or extremely rough terrain. The spindle/hub- the hub & axle is a typical 4" on 4" trailer type (can be bought at Northern Tools and other places) for about $50. each. The King pin portion looks custom made, but could have come from a golf cart.(this set-up is very heavy and would work best with a bigger tire & wheel)

There are several of us that have made spindles & A-arms.

The things to consider for the front suspension-
the terrain it will be driven on,
your driving style (leisure or aggressive),
the amount of travel/shocks,
the wheels and tires,
& your budget!!!

[x-bird]

axle diameter looks like mine, about 1 inch, maybe off a golf cart. not sure what the trailer hubs take. it may be that or a golf cart hub. If you have any local metal recycling yards, they can be a gold mine for atvs, buggies and golf carts. all you pay is for weight, so things come pretty cheaply. Get in good with them, and they'll set them aside and not destroy them right away. paid $45 for an 85 Suzy quadrunner with a 250 in it. there's a polaris with no engine, just trans frame and suspension that will be about $30 by weight and a golf cart that will run me about $100. (spare hubs and rear end for evaluation and possible rear axle setup) After i'm done with the stuff it goes back and i get some of the money back--maybe even come out even or ahead if i sell off parts. So if you're on a budget, it's worth a half or trip. i have a few to choose from within 15 minutes.

Spindle fab comes in a couple varieties, tubular with a central kingpin (like he has and i also made--but slightly different in pivot methods) and box tubing with pivots off of ball joints or heims. Metal is right on about golf cart hub weight, with that much you have to build the spindle and lower good and strong. upper arm isn't an issue if the shock mounts to the lower. tubular spindle s tend to be lighter. I went with cro-mo tubing for the a-arms and spindles and am very glad i did. Suspension geometry boils down to what you prefer the front wheels to be doing and that relates to the terrain you ride on more than anything. pro and con arguments can be made for equal and unequal length arms and parallel or intersecting mounting position heights. If you plan a build, work up your frame ideas and try and study as much suspension theory as you can before you commit to building it.

[FloridaCracker]

WOW...I watched the video. That thing sounds awesome. I WANT ONE!!!
no... I want TWO!!!

[GDAccent]

Yeah, I def. want a few...lol. Well I was surprise when I got another response from him. Seems pretty cool guy to talk about it. He gets alot of emails with questions. He built in between 2001-03, said it took about 2yrs no rush as I mentioned before. He said he couldn't remember the space distance from lower to upper arm. But the spindles he fabbed himself. He purchase trailer hubs like metalstudmand1 thought and he welded on a piece of pipe to it and created his own attachment points. He was kind enough to send me a couple of pics.




So I started cutting some metal today, well torch cutting, but ran out of gas for it. So only got so far. Using my father in laws torch cutter. So thats gonna wait a little til he gets more. First time I've torch cut, pretty fun. Better than grinding a lot of it all off.

So in the meantime we decided to clean out the carborator on the sandrail that was given to us. I had posted about this in the intro thread,





He has 22 acres to ride around on. Why do I want to make something like the blue buggy, kind of a why not. Some one can be riding in the sand rail and or someone else can rid the mini buggy. The only thing I don't like about the sand rail is that the seats are too narrow for me. Its like my hip bones are riding the edge of the fiberglass seats. I know I am fat..hehe, but I can tell the dif. from fat or bone riding on it.

My father in law reminded me of my '80 Honda Accord he gave me. which got pushed out back pasture. I was gonna turn it into a rally car and now it sits. So he said lets make another sandrail/buggy using it. He also has another honda to part out as well.

So now we have a small go cart for the kids, a sandrail for us bigger kids and a soon to be 3rd sandrail buggy, and also the blue buggy i want to make. So we got a little muddy today. This week it rained pretty good on this area. Vancouver, WA, Portland OR area. So some of our corners got a little squirrelly and flying mud. FUN FUN FUN.

So we are trying to make some toys I guess you can say....lol.

Anyways, I'll keep you posted on this project this thread was intended for. But i Also need to find some threads of buggies using a honda motor. To get some more ideas on that set up.

Thanks,

GDA

[metalstudman1]

What type of Honda motor?!!! industrial,motorcycle,auto? The accord should have some good parts for a buggy-full size or mini. i love the terrain in your area but it just rains too much!!!!

[GDAccent]

HAHA..ThX, yes the terrain is awesome here. I hope to check out some other sites to drive the buggy on. But mainly it'll be at my father in laws property. Sat. by bro in law took the tractor and started making some tracks to drive. Its been a little wet lately but once dries out should be pretty fun.

The Honda is a 1980 Honda Accord 4 door it has a 1.8L engine 1751cc give or take, auto matic. It had been sitting for about 5yrs. father in law gave it to me free for making a Rally-X car out of it. A friend and I changed the transmission in it, I drove it a little, and then it sat. Because wife thought I had too much "ME" time and a second baby almost due. So it was Pushed into the woods out of the way. It was totally overgrown with bushes. You could barely make out it was a car sitting there. It was a little shore getting it out.





So we opened the hood after moving back closer to the shop, found the engine all piled up with leaves and such from mice and squirrels using it. Cleared it out, attached a battery, got spark and it started. My father in law and I our eyes got wide open with JOY...lol.

metalstudman1..I ran across one of your vids on youtube, you have quite the collection of go carts going and awesome to take advantage of the 65 acres you are close too. Looks like a blast to ride around in.

[GDAccent]

So I have been doing some thinking and wasn't sure if this type of spindle would work also. Can get them cheap used off Ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-TRX-30...#ht_1115wt_815



The set up I posted just above where the gut built his own spindle/hub would have some money into it per side.

Just trying to figure out my front spindle options. I have found a set I have ordered for the rear hubs. So I am good there for now I think. Would a wheel with bearing be worse to use vs the 4 lug hub.

[x-bird]

i think the issue with the above is going to be that you'll need specific ball joints, the mount holes look like they're tapered. It's also going to "fix" your a-arm "height" and steering arm position to what it is. difficult to mod that spindle. The other setup you posted is a little similar to what i did.

I posted a thread about golf cart front and rear setups http://www.buggymasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3029

I picked up a complete cart for less than $100 at the scrap yard and chopped the front and rear suspension and steering setup off it, returned the rest for $30. still have the electric motor and other parts to return for scrap when i'm done. for that price, that's 2 good hubs, rims and spindles you could modify.

[GDAccent]

So too just be curious and check, I called a couple of scrap yards today and no go on any golf carts. They hadn't seen any for many years.

I really won't be doing any hard jumps, not sure if I'll be doing much jumping in general because the area we will be riding in is quite hilly. But who knows, but wouldn't be huge either.

I had thought about going with a single lower arm and tie into a shock to body. Here is a pic of something I was looking into building before I had found the pic of the cart I posted at first on this thread.



I need to find more close up pis of his spindle set up. I have read most of his thread, but can't remember if I saw it. But if you'll also notice his wheels are single bearing rims. He claims he built it for trail riding expecting jumps.

ThX,

GDA

[T3beatz]

That things got to be plenty hard to turn, with those fat tires up front and no rack n pinion.

[metalstudman1]

That's a inexpensive to build buggy!!!!The only bummer with a single A-arm is that the wheel follows the arc of the arm and depending on how hard your driving this can prove to be un-manageable.Also when in a hard turn the camber doesn't let the tires sit square on the ground losing traction. You can make a single A-arm type design (similar to the sidewinder) single connection at the chassis and dual connection at the spindle that resolves the fixed arc pattern and allows the wheels stay basically perpendicular to the ground through most of a tall shocks travel.
Also his rear IRS has the same arc issue providing some suspension but poor traction when suspension is compressed. No doubt his buggy is fast as there isn't any chassis!!! I agree with T3beatz that the steering has got to be hard- the handle bars makes for even more effort to turn. There's nothing wrong with the wheel that has bearings other than ease of changing to better rims. I want to know where this person put's his feet while driving- I think he has Fred Flintstone reverse!!!!

[GDAccent]

Oh yeah, i kinda forgot about the Sidewinder. I did some looking up on that as you mentioned in the other thread. I also will be adding rack n pin and NO on the handle bars...lol. I originally thought it to be a simple design and make those small changes.

Theres another pic of him driving it. I think his feet are resting on the frame just where the a arms attach to frame. I'll see if i can find it. But I am thinking of going with the bearinged wheel to start. But i will keep looking for front hubs if need too.

[x-bird]

the pic above--it has a floorpan, hard to see, but you can also see the panel clamp bolts for welding sticking up and a notch-out by the right front brace tube.

When it comes to the pricetag, i think 5K is a high estimate. For about $100 more in materials, (tube and sheet) mine would be a complete "scratch & component" build--swingarm-axle, rims/tires/hubs, engine, shocks, seat, Rack&Pin & steering wheel) Total of mine would still be under 2k with the extra metal to replace the pan and few tubes i kept from the original. The bigger expense is equipment and materials if you don't have them. if you want a pic of my spindle components, i'll post it, but i'm pretty sure they're on pg 3 or 4 of my thread.

[GDAccent]

I have access to most of what i need. will probably buy some round tube. but have a lot of square. biggest expense i see right now is motor. i want to put in a 500cc. so i have been looking for quards i can buy cheap. in the long run i see maybe putting in about $500 Into it. I have access to other parts from pop in laws riding mower graveyard. access to stick or wire welder too. torch cutter. just trying to nail down a front hub config.

ThX

GDA

[metalstudman1]

x-bird- I see the floor panel now as I thought it was the garage floor!!!!

GDA- Your search for a quad with an engine around 500cc could provide a good portion of the parts needed for your build. You can possibly use the frontend & suspension, brakes and wheels as most were 110mm. Honda has made many great powerplants- some of them are very heavy (poor weight-to-power ratio), just something to take into consideration, as my 400cc (Hondamatic) had less useful power than my TRX200SX engines when it came to performance.

[GDAccent]

I am a big guy, just under 300lbs. shameful to admit. But I think at least a 500cc should be able to push me up some hills... . I mean a buddy of mine is about same weight and he rides a GSX750 and it moves him pretty good. I personally think for this build I wouldn't need more than a 500cc, but if a 250 could work, I'd look into one of those as well. probably save a little $$ there too.

I have also been checking the ebay as well. I have seen a couple spindle/hubs listed for a yamati 90 something like that. Would those be too small for this build, seems like prices on those are less than I find for 300cc and above parts. Taking anything into consideration I can find.

ThX

GDA

[GDAccent]

I was searching the net for other possible options for the front hubs. I found this interesting, I guess adapter I would call it. to go over a spindle. but allow you to have the 4 lug option still.

http://www.quickieparts.com/go-kart-...lt-circle.html

thought I'd post if for fun. see what you think....

Ya know, now that I think on it more. My father in law has a John Deere riding mower. I think its a 4 lug spindle set up. I'll have to check it out on Sat. may be something I can build upon. Since he has these mowers at my disposal. I can pretty much use those tires possibly. I'll figure something out....lol.

GDA

[T3beatz]

You can get some hubs from BMI for less than half that cost.

these come with 5/8" bearings, but you can get 3/4" ones if you look around...http://www.*************/item/4x4-Whe...ngs-260055-761

http://www.*************/item/Heavy-D...ub-260056-3203

or these http://www.*************/item/4-on-4-...or-380104-6187

[metalstudman1]

If the JD parts have an actual spindle on a kingpin (not a "J" rod) then you probably have your inexpensive spindles & wheels.
The fact that you're 300lbs. doesn't mean you have to get a huge cc engine as most buggies have that as a load capacity or more anyways. Big engines provide speed in a hurry!!!! If your intent is to drive in the 40 mph range then just about any engine over 10hp will do the trick- and with proper gearing a 3hp motor would work too. Most 250cc engines should be plenty. If you could swing all the parts for a 2-stroke engine,clutch & driven you could get around really well as they have a much better HP-to- weight ratio.
I'll ask just so we're all on the same page- you want to build a single seater?

[GDAccent]

Yeah, I am wanting to do a single seater like the blue cart or similar I posted the pic of at the top of this thread. My family is getting the buggy/cart itch. So I have always wanted a single seater somewhat fast than a basic small go kart. And I have been thinking about a 250cc or higher, just wasn't which would be better. 40mph should be hella fine for what we are doing. Like said before no jumping really either.

As I mentioned, I pretty much have most of the parts, but just thinking to dial in the front hub/suspension and motor ideas for the direction I want to go in.

Plus as another project. my father in law and I are also starting a new sandrail style buggy too. This way we'll have 2 rails and the single seater to play with for variety. I like the sand rails, but I don't always want to give every kid a ride, every time I jump in a rail. sounds bad I know, but I also just want one for myself just to have the experience of building and learning it and enjoying it after its completed.

T3beatz thanks for the tip on the hubs. I recently bought some stuff from BMI for the small go cart and didn't realize they had these hubs.

So then technically I could do this...
http://www.*************/item/4x4-Whe...ngs-260055-761

With this.....
http://www.*************/item/58-x-4-...0-or-411000-61

on the front of this cart and it should be fine for general terrain? I like these prices compare to some honda 250-300ex used parts on ebay, but I guess unless which will be better sturdiness.

So yeah, thanks guys, some things to think more about. If you think it'll work fine then I might go that route.

ThX

Geez bedtime already. 12a here and I need to get up at 5a. You are all welcome to email me and further suggestion or pics for reference and such. gothycdesigns@hotmail.com


GDA

[T3beatz]

for any off-roading you will want some spindles a bit more heavy duty then those you linked. You can build some spindles for pretty cheap that will be plenty strong for your front end.
Just ask Metalstudman, he had to build some for his spiderbox and they turned out pretty good.

[x-bird]

if you want to jump on the parts, these have 1" diameter axles--isn't any way you're going to get stronger than that unless you go automotive. SAE fasteners, SAE common bearings in the hubs, 4x4 bolt pattern and 8" golf cart stock rims are dirt cheap and there are larger size options and many styles on the market because of the golf cart modders. All you would need is to fab up 4 a-arms and revise the steering arm lengths and mount holes to match your steering rack.

By the time you do a hub and spindle set up alone, unless you're finding free atvs, you won't get something as dependable = worry free for even 2x the price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Golf-Ca...item484556b1b1

[metalstudman1]

Originally Posted by x-bird

if you want to jump on the parts, these have 1" diameter axles--isn't any way you're going to get stronger than that unless you go automotive. SAE fasteners, SAE common bearings in the hubs, 4x4 bolt pattern and 8" golf cart stock rims are dirt cheap and there are larger size options and many styles on the market because of the golf cart modders. All you would need is to fab up 4 a-arms and revise the steering arm lengths and mount holes to match your steering rack.

By the time you do a hub and spindle set up alone, unless you're finding free atvs, you won't get something as dependable = worry free for even 2x the price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Golf-Ca...item484556b1b1

That's "cheap" for heavy duty hubs/spindles/tie-rods.

[Zapper]

It is always good to have too much than not enough in a build.It makes me so mad when I run out in the middle of building on some project.

[roysheepdog]

spindles like in the pic are easy to build and will work well with chevy caviler front wheel hubs.($45)the space from top aarm and bottom aarm will have to do with how much camber change and travel you want.you will want chamber change but how much will depend on how much travel you will have.

the top aarm should be shorter than the bottom or it will have bad wheel scrub,witch will make it jerk the wheel when you hit a bump.the spindle should point to the bottom center of the tire.this will make the wheel turn in one place on the ground when sitting still.(no scrub)if not the wheel will make a circle around the spindle (scrub).

[GDAccent]

So I have found a craigslist app for my phone. Looking on it today for atv's. There is a guy local that has a parted out 84 Kawasaki 3 wheeler for $25, he's willing to throw in a Suzuki 250 2 stroke air cooled for another $50 for a total of $75.

So is a 2 stroke ok??? can that work for this project? I am not much of an engine knowledge guy as you can tell by now, but I am thinking about snatching it up. He said the suzuki engine was on a go kart at one time. says it runs. If I need to do some work on it, I can learn it.

What ya Think???

X-bird....nice find. I might have to snag that too. You guys are awesome help and I appreciate it very much !!!

GDA

[roysheepdog]

here is a pic were you can see what im talking about.the spindle is pointing at the center of the tire and the top aarm is shorter than the bottom.

[GDAccent]

So I also looked on ebay for some a arms and found this set up.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270990044714...#ht_500wt_1065

If I need to I can probably fab up my own. But I understand about the pointing to center too. I was curious about that before.

I got my rear hubs today, sitting on the porch. Hopefully I can make them work if not can resell them. they are off a DS650 bombardier. $15.00 + $12 shipping.

[metalstudman1]

Originally Posted by GDAccent

So I have found a craigslist app for my phone. Looking on it today for atv's. There is a guy local that has a parted out 84 Kawasaki 3 wheeler for $25, he's willing to throw in a Suzuki 250 2 stroke air cooled for another $50 for a total of $75.

So is a 2 stroke ok??? can that work for this project? I am not much of an engine knowledge guy as you can tell by now, but I am thinking about snatching it up. He said the suzuki engine was on a go kart at one time. says it runs. If I need to do some work on it, I can learn it.

What ya Think???

X-bird....nice find. I might have to snag that too. You guys are awesome help and I appreciate it very much !!!

GDA

Does he have things like the coil,CDI, voltage regulator,carb & exhaust to go with the 250 engine? These items if available could cost another $400.!!! doesn't make for a cheap engine without all or some of these items. A 2-stroke will need a CVT system or another type transmission/gearcase to work on your buggy.
I don't think there's much off that 3-wheeler that is useable for a buggy- but that you'll have to decide based off the pic's. Now if it's a Tecate frame then it's probably worth big bucks!!!!!!
Those A-arms and spindles will work for a buggy- you only need the hubs that go with them!

[GDAccent]

Yes, he's got it listed as a 1984 Kawasaki Tecate 3 Wheeler. The engine also has the transmission with it. Not sure about wiring.

[roysheepdog]

i should have asked, how much travel do you want,how fast do you want to go?
why would you build the hole buggy the way you want it and then buy quad aarms?thats just a compromise.

[GDAccent]

I posted the pics of the sandrail as its another project we will be working on. This thread it basically about building something very similar to that of the Blue one I posted at the top of the thread.

Since this is my first venture into building something like this. A lot of pics and other articles I have read seems like they have been using quad a-arms. So I am just learning with what is possible and can do. I want some decent travel, I don't want it stiff. So I have looked into making a front suspension set up like the pics you posted. And I may go more that way. Mainly I am trying to figure what would work best for spindles and such.

If that makes sense. Learning and building....lol. And having fun later. Speed not too much a factor it top is 40mph, then I'll be happy. and since I am a big guy, hoping for power enough to get mu and down some hills in the area which bogging too much.

GDA

[GDAccent]

The best description of the area I will be riding this in, is very similar to the backyard/wooded area like you see in metalstudman1 videos. Maybe a little more brush, some areas might be a little bumpy, and has some decent hills.

Hope that gives an idea how I'll be using it. We have about 22 acres to use and make trails. And not far from there a guy I work with has 45 acres which he has been working on a track and trails as well.

[roysheepdog]

with the quad aarms you will not get much travel and if it can go 40mph i would want more travel than that.
i would want it to be strong and not worry about it ever breaking.the quad stuff is rated for the weight of a quad not a buggy,then going 40 in the ruf with short travel may be more than it can take.
dont take it the wrong way im not saying it wont work,just saying its not be the best way to do it.
the buggy in the pic has 15+'' of travel in the front and i have never seen a wheel leave the ground from washouts or off camber hills or anything,and it rides nice.
if you dont know how to do it we will help you all the way,ive built more than one buggy and i know studman has to.

the best thing about building the hole thing is it will be what you want,and when someone ask were can i get one like that.then you can smile and say you cant I BUILT IT!

[Zapper]

[QUOTE=GDAccent;24837]So I have found a craigslist app for my phone. Looking on it today for atv's. There is a guy local that has a parted out 84 Kawasaki 3 wheeler for $25, he's willing to throw in a Suzuki 250 2 stroke air cooled for another $50 for a total of $75.

So is a 2 stroke ok??? can that work for this project? I am not much of an engine knowledge guy as you can tell by now, but I am thinking about snatching it up. He said the suzuki engine was on a go kart at one time. says it runs. If I need to do some work on it, I can learn it.

What ya Think???

X-bird....nice find. I might have to snag that too. You guys are awesome help and I appreciate it very much !!!

4 Stroke No oil mixing or injector to go bad

[GDAccent]

Totally, I know where you are coming from. I'm cool with your advise and does make sense. It'll be a single seater. and in all I think it would weigh less than a quad in general. I think quads get what about 4-8" travel and I'd be fine with that. I had thought of making the a arms about 1.5-2ft.

[roysheepdog]

think about it like this, 4'' of travel set up right will have 2'' of down and 2'' of up travel.if the buggy sits at the top of the suspension it will ride ruff,(think of a car when you jack it up)thats why you need droop.baja buggy and trucks use 40-50%droop.
even with 8'' of travel it will only have 4'' of up or down travel.
with droop when you go across a hole the wheel can go down into it without the buggy itself dipping down so you dont feel the hole.
this buggy will weigh more than a quad,by a 100+lbs easy.
just want it to be safe,think of what it would be like for a wheel to come off at 40+mph.

[GDAccent]

roysheepdog ~ Ok, so then how do you figure in and "droop"? And if the A-Arms are going to be offset, then are we talking about a 2-4" length difference, being the upper is shorter I presume?

Is there a way or program to calculate for this or droop? And what kind of shocks/coils or
should I use? For example If I want the A-Arms to be about 1.5ft. long.

So as I am doing more research on the direction I want to take this buggy..Its pretty much turning out to be more like a Sidewinder. The blue one at top was just the original thought design I wanted to go, well pretty much, I want to do a combo between the styles. I am not a fan of the engine being on my side, so I still want to do a swing suspension in the back. But I want to do the front suspension end like the Sidewinder.

I found a link to a guy fron AU I think that built a mini Sidewinder as he called it. I guess scaled down, but his pic of the front suspension is pretty much exactly I want to go. I was thinking of buying the IFS plans which is $20 + $5 shipping, or I can figure some of this out with my father in law. All I really need to know it just dimensions and I have pics for reference and I can pretty much get it done.

This one pic is why I was looking into quad/atv arms, because its pretty common to see...


But I also like this front Sidewinder pic of suspension...


And a close up of the mini Sidewinder I was mentioning...



Yesterday I got a start on cutting the metal...my father in law got some semi truck trailer panels from one of his sons friends, they are 9.5' x 11'. I didn't have gas for the torch cutting so use my new high speed cutter from Harbor Freight..But I will definitely have 100ft to use or less...




Yes the square tube needs to be cleaned up, but there are 6-7 more panels I can use if need to.

[Zapper]

Say that is a good find.Thanks for kidos

[roysheepdog]

Originally Posted by GDAccent

roysheepdog ~ Ok, so then how do you figure in and "droop"? And if the A-Arms are going to be offset, then are we talking about a 2-4" length difference, being the upper is shorter I presume?

Is there a way or program to calculate for this or droop? And what kind of shocks/coils or
should I use? For example If I want the A-Arms to be about 1.5ft. long.

So as I am doing more research on the direction I want to take this buggy..Its pretty much turning out to be more like a Sidewinder. The blue one at top was just the original thought design I wanted to go, well pretty much, I want to do a combo between the styles. I am not a fan of the engine being on my side, so I still want to do a swing suspension in the back. But I want to do the front suspension end like the Sidewinder.

I found a link to a guy fron AU I think that built a mini Sidewinder as he called it. I guess scaled down, but his pic of the front suspension is pretty much exactly I want to go. I was thinking of buying the IFS plans which is $20 + $5 shipping, or I can figure some of this out with my father in law. All I really need to know it just dimensions and I have pics for reference and I can pretty much get it done.

This one pic is why I was looking into quad/atv arms, because its pretty common to see...


But I also like this front Sidewinder pic of suspension...


And a close up of the mini Sidewinder I was mentioning...



Yesterday I got a start on cutting the metal...my father in law got some semi truck trailer panels from one of his sons friends, they are 9.5' x 11'. I didn't have gas for the torch cutting so use my new high speed cutter from Harbor Freight..But I will definitely have 100ft to use or less...




Yes the square tube needs to be cleaned up, but there are 6-7 more panels I can use if need to.

This is the calc. to help with how long the aarms should be.First you need to know how wide the frame will be between the aarms, then how long the bottom aarm will be(keep in mind how wide the buggy will be).

http://www.racingaspirations.com/?p=286

The shocks will depend on how you build the buggy,how high the shock mount will be and travel.Some use utv shocks but shocks are all about $$$.I would decide how much travel I wanted and build from there.


with droop most people have 40-50%,that way the wheel will go up as well as down.The plans are a good start and if you like the specs for the side winder go for it.I would look around to see if some others would be a better fit for what you want.

[metalstudman1]

What size is the steel? it looks great!!! The front end (in your close-up pic's)isn't sidewinder typical(from the plans I've seen) for the design that most are made with- that's a much more expensive version.IMO- I didn't have tons of luck with that spindle design as the bolts would come loose and the bushing (top & bottom) needed lube about everytime driven, if the bolts are too tight the bushing fails FAST, if too loose there's play in the wheel (I used loctite!!)

[roysheepdog]

Your right studman it dont look very good.I think the sidewinder has one aarm that has one mount at the frame and two at the spindle.

[GDAccent]

The Steel is 1¼" square. And I think same thickness as the white sandrail. Father in law has used it in/on tractor projects and has not seen any fail yet to any he has used. Since using square tubing. I am keeping in mind to weld gussets in place if needed.

As for the Sidewinder, its just what I am calling it for referencing. I like the shape or design body wise, but may want to do something different for the A arms.

Heres a pic I found of a basic Sidewinder frame....


And closeup of its A arm....

And this is a pic of the Mini Sidewinder....which I am leaning towards design wise I think.


The only thing about the Sidewinder in general not a fan of the side mount engine, so as I mentioned before, I may just modify to be a swing arm in back to mount engine in back.

But if you look at this mini sidewinder, his a arms look pretty wide compared to body. I think it would be a decent stable ride.

Heres a side view of it completed..


Originally I found this pic of a Traxx II I liked and was going to go for that


, but it had no suspension, thus in further research brought me to the blue shredder style that started this thread..


I like this one too, but a arms do look to have a small travel (see post #8 close up pic). But this has the swing arm in back I like and engine in back..I know to many options.

Why couldn't take a little from each.

[x-bird]

somewhere in my "travels" i came across a guy's pics and site showing a buggy built with all square tubing including the basic dimensions and plans. I think if you search under "easy to build" or "cheap to build" go kart or buggy you'll find it ... Was a stout design.

[chuckorlando]

Lotta ausi machines are made from square. Aint much cheap DOM over there. For what your doing, long as it has a decent wall thickness, your fine. Certainly no worse than china steel.You certainly dont want a single arm unless it's VW swinger style. Single arm will have some wicked camber change in both direction.

Tech you should design a front end from the wheel in. You need the wheel to set kingpin inclination.

[chuckorlando]

The first pic shows a bad KP. Second is how it should be. The 3rd pic shows (in theory) how the top arm is set back, or rear mounts set lower rather. So the arm swings up and back with terrain. 4th pic shows un up top view of this set up. Note the top arm slightly back. The last pic shows the same set up's KP angles

Thats also an un equal length arm set up. It's only about 1.5in shorter. Most folks set there camber at 0 at static and around 5degrees at bump for turning.

If I was you I would take some pvc pipe. Set your lower arm and spindle. Then use the pvc to moch the upper arm. Cycle it and see where you need to be. Once you got that then you need to figure in ackerman with tierod location. Basicly it should be straight line from center rear axle through upper KP to the tierod. If this aint right or in the same ball park, you'll either over or under steer and create a push drag turn. Now you need to set the rack. Your rack will need to line up with the arm pivots, and be located more or less in the middle of the travel. How far forward it is will affect radius like ackerman and how far up and down will affect bumpsteer

[chuckorlando]

As you can see, you start at the rim, spindle, KP, tierod, rack. From out to in. Not in to out

[Zapper]

Zombie that is a good lokking ride.I like sq.tube myself you don't have to have a bender and i think it si stronger.Just me.

[GDAccent]

Thanks guys......So Chuck, I noticed your a arm look more "y" shaped instead of what I have been seeing more even sided "Y". Was that a preference choice or based on your frame design and as you said work out to in? Mocking up with pvc sounds like a good idea.

As for the square tube, I have access to a lot of it and its "FREE", fits my budget there so I can get other things as needed. Plus the size of this frame will be smaller than a sandrail, but big enough to fit me comfortably, so I figured it would be stout enough. The square tube is a decent thickness, and I can make gussets where needed for extra security. But some of these square tube buggies seem pretty decent.

ThX

GDA

[GDAccent]

X-bird, I think I know which one you are talking about, I think its the orange one I have picture aboved he called a mini sidewinder. This is the page I found http://home.exetel.com.au/daveland/

Currently checking out this site.. http://www.desertkarts.com/off-roadcars.ivnu
The Panther design looks good too. Pretty much most of the mini buggies for a single seater will look remotely the same with few differences.

For the most part I really have an idea how I want to build the main frame. All this info is good to take into consideration for the front suspension. There was also a set of plans for just that I saw and was only $20. thinking of getting it.

Besides any plans that any one has built by, is there any book I should look into that some of you may have read when you started out? I should have asked this at the top of the thread.

GDA

[GDAccent]

I keep forgetting to ask, but whats a good low budget shocks I should use? You think there are some deals on ebay? What size should I be looking for?

ThX

GDA

[chuckorlando]

Thats not my arm. Thats a member on mini buggy named chicken1974 and that arm is actualy on a mini sprint car converted to sand rail. Alot of machines use angled arms at the tip. Most have huge amounts of travel. Were talking 15-24in of travel. That would put the heims in a heel of a bind at droop and lock.

If the arm was an A(I assume thats what you mean) you absolutly could not have the spindle so forward. If the front endge is straight, the heim is at the leading edge. If the spindle is mounts in the center of a 12in A it would be 6in back. Pluss. all the strength you need comes from that rear tube on the arm. Least if you hit something. But truth is, the shape of your arm will come down to frame design, possible tab location, wheel base.

Cheap is realative to a mans wallet. My walkerevans clicker shocks go for 800 a set. You can get em for 200-300 used. My rears I'm going for are the fox air2.0. Bout 450-500 a pair for non coilovers.

I have the desertkarts plans. It will not fit a grown man. Least per the designer. But would be easy to modify. If you want some quality plans they wont be cheap. But hands down, Rorty makes the best plans, proper geom in the suspension, many sizes, and a true race designed machine. Desert karts will give you some ideas, but you'll have to redesign almost every aspect to fit you

[roysheepdog]

This guy made a vid of piranha plans.Its about what you are looking for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1nlD...ure=plpp_video

[GDAccent]

Awesome vid. ThX for the find. I can probably take screen shots of the vid and use for references. Since some of those pages have mm measurements.

But I guess when it comes to sizing the cockpit, I should revise a little so I can be comfortable while in it and ease of getting in and out. Whats the best way to figure it. Sit down on the ground and measure width and length of leg extension? I had also thought about adding a quick disconnect steering wheel. Simple. and nothing to fancy.

Thanks again for your time if you searched it out. Its amazing how much thought process goes into making one of these things...lol.

[metalstudman1]

The quick connect steering is a wonderful thing to have!!!! It's a security device too when removed!!!!
Your comfort of getting in & out? these designs are far from easy to get in and out for a large guy. Look at some of the manufacted buggies to understand the placement of tubing to provide for easy access in & out. Then incorporate that into the your design.

[GDAccent]

So I am going to have some time on my hands from the 4th to the 15th. The company I work for has a company wide shutdown, we are a small employee business. So I will have some good time to work on the buggy.

I recently got a email from BMI Karts & Supplies, I noticed it had a Yerf Dog link.
I see they have these listed at BMI and was thinking $50.00, not bad....

http://www.*************/item/Left-A-...UVs-04130-6482

They sell the LT & RT. was kinda considering these since they are already made.

Any thoughts on these before I decide to buy them? Or just make my own? Has anyone bought these and have had problems or not?

ThX,

GDA

[metalstudman1]

These will be fine if you don't want much shock travel- single A-arm like this doesn't provide as good of geometry as the double. The wheel can only arc & camber is constantly changing thru travel. These are best suited for sitting on top of the suspension instead of behind it.