Carbide needs more torque

[joshstep1]

So, I got to take my Carbide trail riding for the first time at Land between the Lake's Turkey Bay, and I have to say, it was AWESOME. The kart did pretty good on the trails, considering the weight of the kart, plus the weight of me and my dad (320 lbs.), (840 lbs. all together with the weight of the kart). I was impressed with the hills we could climb. However, there were a few times when one of us had to get out and help push it up a hill. So, my question is this. What is the cheapest way to pull more torque out of it. Note: I don't want to sacrifice top end speed. What are your suggestions?

[BuggyMaster]

Well..depends on how you look at it. You can mod the variator with some lighter weights but you may lose a little top end. Otherwise, a big bore kit is probably your best bet. Talk to Tom (Member: SYCARMS) at SYC Powersports. Just more power.

[BuggyMaster]

Or.....step up to a 250! Big bore kit would be cheaper.

[24evanwilson]

theres gotta be thumpthin else!!

[BPNWMike]

A performance clutch isn't cheap (read: under $100), but it'll get you up those hills and won't cost you any top speed.

Dr Pulley clutches have been known to GAIN a couple mph top speed from gripping the clutch bell so well and having 0 slippage - and this has been my experience too.

I don't know what mods you've done (if any), but the main inexpensive ones to gain a lot of low end will almost always sacrifice some top speed - it's the nature of the system. You compensate for this by doing other mods.

For example, if you go to a lighter slider weight and stronger main spring to gain low end (sacrificing a bit of top speed), you can remove the stock airbox and install a velocity stack and UNI filter which will gain you more overall power and top speed. The net top speed gain might be canceled out by the lighter weights, but you have a lot more low end and no top speed loss. Total cost for this mod: ~$90 (UNI, jets, velocity stack, slider weights, main spring).

[joshstep1]

ok, so how about a performance clutch and some 9 gram roller weights?

[Famlfax]

9g weights ROB the top speed. I just did them, and don't like it. They do however help climbing. My helix was pulling the front end up climbing some steeep dirt hills.

[BuggyMaster]

It's always a love hate relationship. Gotta give some to get some.

[BPNWMike]

9g sliders will take away the most top speed, and the clutch won't give that much back.

As I mentioned in another thread here, getting low end or top speed gains for not a lot of money is relatively easy. It's when you want both that it gets expensive!

Wanting that better low end and not losing top speed requires a number of different mods that give better X (low end/top speed), but take away Y (Low end/top speed). So then you have to get another mod to get you back what you lost on the previous mod.

This only really applies when you're going for a "best of both worlds" approach. The key thing is knowing what you'd like it to do, knowing your budget, and understanding that you may have to sacrifice one thing or another.

It's very surprising how versatile these engines really are, and we can do a significant amount of tuning and overall power/performance gain. The question is: how do you want it to perform and in what terrain?

[joshstep1]

What's the difference between variator weights and roller weights?

[BuggyMaster]

they are physically different where as one is an actual roller and the other is more squarish looking (not really a square at all but more of a funny shaped block). Because of their shape difference they act differently when in use.

Someone else may be able to explain more in detail but generally a slider will give you more of the best of both worlds.

[joshstep1]

so now im trying to configure a set up in that minimal speed is lost, i dont mind a few mph. it looked like on your youtube vid that you took out the roller weights and put in the variator weights...right?

[24evanwilson]

wats the shorty clutch dom was talkin about??

[foxracer45]

Originally Posted by 24evanwilson

wats the shorty clutch dom was talkin about??

i was just gonna say that lol. at one of the supporting vendors they have a new thing called a shorty clutch witch i guess is supposed to focus more power to more of a hill climbing or drifting. not really for top speed as much as instant take off. i might get it.

[24evanwilson]

i cant find it?!!

[joshstep1]

does the upgradeable cdi increase speed?

[BuggyMaster]

I have consistently gained 2 mph on top speed runs from the cdi box. Won't feel it much other than a top speed run though so if you are in a drag race, it's a nice little addition. If you are woods riding where you are not likely to see top speed, not much benefit.

Someone makes an adjustable one that I don't have experience with. I don't think it will work on a DC based CDI machine such as a carbide or helix.

[BPNWMike]

The shorty clutch may be at one of the supporting vendors.

The "variator weights" and roller weights are different names for the same thing. Roller weights are the weights that go inside the variator and are therefore "variator weights". They are round in shape and literally roll into place from centrifugal force - hence the name "roller weight".

"Slider weights" is what I think you meant to ask. They are also weights that go into the variator and are shaped kind of like a stylized capital "D". Because of this shape, they SLIDE inside the variator from the centrifugal force and so are called "sliders".

They perform the exact same function. The difference between them is that rollers develop flat spots over time and stop rolling and you'll get a jerking sensation from the vehicle because they are not able to move smoothly. Sliders are already flat on the sides that come in contact with the interior of the variator and therefore will not have this same problem.

Sliders also can better push out the top plate to give you the full range of the variator than a roller can because the slider's shape wedges it into the fully extended position.

Lastly, sliders tend to give a smoother overall acceleration and deceleration than roller weights do.

The way a lighter or heavier weight affects your low end or top end speed is essentially the same regardless of whether it's a roller or a slider: lighter weights give more low end, heavier weights give more top end.

An aftermarket performance CDI allows you to achieve higher RPMs and often has some advanced ignition timing at the top end. This can really be helpful when you're using lighter weights in the variator because lighter weights = higher RPMs. If you've got a rev limiter in the stock CDI and you go to light weights, you might be hitting that rev limiter all the time and lose even more top speed than you should be - but because of the CDI.

In this instance, replacing the CDI with a no-rev limiter version will allow you to gain back those RPMs (and lost top speed) lost with the stock CDI.

[joshstep1]

thanks BPNMike. How much speed would be lost with 9 gram variator weights and how much speed is gained with a no rev cdi?

[BPNWMike]

Hi Josh,

There's no hard and fast conversion chart that will say for sure. There are so many variables in this it's not even funny: What brand of kart is it? (I'm not asking, just pointing out there are 100s of different brands) How much does it weigh? What roller weights does it come with? What CDI does it come with? How much do you and your passengers weigh?

I could go on and on with questions (not looking for answers to those above right now) that would show that it's not as simple as saying "5mph" because it's a very individual result. A normal ballpark figure we throw out is generally 3-5mph when you drop down from 13g stock rollers to 9g.

You might gain back as much as 1/2 that with a no rev limit CDI - but maybe not. Since the rollers and CDI generally have nothing to do with one another in the engine other than the RPM level (lighter weights = higher rpms), the better CDI only comes into play if you've got a rev limiter in the stock CDI.

The performance CDI works best when you upgrade the air/fuel system since it allows better combustion of the additional air and fuel you're supplying (especially when paired with a high output coil and spark plug).

[joshstep1]

should I just experiment with different stuff?

[BPNWMike]

Well, let's get back to your original issue: you want more low end without losing (much) top speed.

Try some 10g slider weights, a yellow main spring, and the level 1 air performance package we have (UNI filter, velocity stack, and main jets included). This will get you some more overall power, and much better low end (assuming you're running the standard 13g stock rollers now). Your top speed loss will probably only be a couple mph, and you can always tweak it further later on.

The cost for these items would be ~$90.

[joshstep1]

yes, im running 13 gram rollers. ill talk to my parents later and see if its alright. thanks for all the help.

[bige]

glad you had fun at the ride. this is what I would do, a 39 tooth axle sprocket, 12 gram sliders, yellow clutch arm springs and a white or red main spring.

my wifes pulled her and chucks wife up some pretty steep hills, thats the set up thats in hers and it still will gps at 42 mph

[joshstep1]

Thanks for the advice, bige, but I have already orders the parts. I bought some 10 gram sliders, 1500 rpm main clutch spring, and an air performance package #1 all for less than 90 smacks from Buggy Parts NW. How do you think it will do with these parts?

[BuggyMaster]

I think the #10's are going to be too light in the variator but the air package will make some of that up.

[bige]

I agree, add the 39 tooth sprocket and that will add some serious bottom end. I will try and post some pics of the fall ride later

[joshstep1]

what about upping the cdi? would that regain some of the lost speed?

[BPNWMike]

Originally Posted by BuggyMaster

I think the #10's are going to be too light in the variator but the air package will make some of that up.

Well, this is the point I was making - but they're not going to be "too light".

He'll get the low end he's looking for, and gain the top end back. We get feedback all the time from people who are very happy with this setup, as it's inexpensive and easy to install. A sprocket upgrade is a much more technical upgrade, though it will also provide good low end. There's just an awful lot of buggy you have to take apart to get it installed.

I've run 9g sliders in my 150 for 1.5 years along with a lot of other mods and LOVED the low end power it gave me. Yes, the RPMs ran about 85-8800 at wide open and my top speed was in the high 30s, but it was a low end monster.

Since upgrading to a 30mm pumper carb and gaining a ton of power from that I went to 11g sliders and might go even heavier. But without the other mods that increased the overall power and low end, I would not have wanted to lose that acceleration and climbing ability that I had with the lighter weight sliders.

It goes back to the first question that BIGE and I ask customers: What kind of riding do you do and how do you want the buggy to perform?

[BPNWMike]

Originally Posted by joshstep1

what about upping the cdi? would that regain some of the lost speed?

Install what on the way to you and see where you're at - there's no need to get more parts until you know whether or not you need it

If you find the RPMs are too high and you're hitting a rev limiter, then yes - you could replace the CDI and make that problem go away. You'd gain some top end as well because of being able to rev higher - but only if you're actually hitting a rev ceiling with the stock one.

[joshstep1]

what other mods do you have on your 150?

[BPNWMike]

Originally Posted by joshstep1

what other mods do you have on your 150?

It's been a test bed for parts from the business, so it's kind of a Frankenbuggy!

Here's a list:

- Performance exhaust
- UNI intake
- 30mm pumper carb with intake riser kit and port matched cylinder head
- CDI
- Hi output coil
- Iridium spark plug
- (currently) 11g slider weights
- Dr Pulley Variator
- Dr Pulley HiT clutch
- Yellow main spring
- Trail Tech Vapor computer

That's all I can think of right now...

[joshstep1]

i guess its a beast, huh?

[BPNWMike]

It is very very VERY fun to drive!

Where we ride there are only a few areas where you can really open it up wide and go for more than 1/2 mile or so - lots of narrow trails and curves.

So it's really fun to have it geared low so I can zip through all that and drift around corners and punch it coming out of them. It's well suited for its environment.

If I were to take it to the beach, it'd probably be a dog, as the low end would just dig into the hills and not climb at all. And the relatively low top speed (40ish, now) would get me left behind on the long flat stretches.

[foxracer45]

Originally Posted by 24evanwilson

i cant find it?!!

then i messed it up lol i think it was kidnme lol.