Finally adding reverse

[TheFauxFox]

Hey y'all! I've FINALLY gotten my hands on a neighbor's impact wrench so I'm going to get started on installing my reverse tomorrow. Any tips/tricks/thoughts? Anything that is super crucial (besides the reverse...duh) that I might overlook? Just looking for last minute insights before I might screw something up...

just a list of parts that I have

Crankshaft (longer, and various bits that go with it)
gearbox
washers (to space rear sprocket)
cable
cable guides/adjusters that hold the cable on the reverse
gearbox holding bracket

missing anything with that?

to lazy to add individual photos, so I just am gonna post a link to my photo bucket. I have a few pics on here of the reverse bits if anyone's interested at glancing through them.

tnx again guys!
http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/RM...?sort=3&page=1

Just went to check the buggy depot install guide page (can't follow it to the t, but it is certainly close enough) and they have it password protected/migrated to a new web service. -_- anyone know of a guide or something, or is it easy enough to just go by the seat of your pants?

[bear]

Have you tried just typing in " gy6 external gear box install for yerf dog???

[x-bird]

gear oil, shift handle, replacement bearings and seal for the output shaft--do those while you're in there.

[TheFauxFox]

Originally Posted by bear

Have you tried just typing in " gy6 external gear box install for yerf dog???

I have... to no avail. Most of the stuff I found I already know, so I guess this puts me off at a good start

x-bird, that sounds like a great idea I'm sure that I would have forgotten, but what do you mean by seal the output shaft?

Kinda freaking out right now. I just read that I need a longer chain.... OK I'm not freaking out but a bit upset. Do I need a longer chain? I know that the new gearbox sprocket is 11t, so it would make sense-----oh wait a sec. Wouldn't I need to take some off, or just tension the chain a crap ton?


thnx again

[JERSEYDEVIL]

take pics when you get the cover off for reference change out the bearings if they aint perfectly smooth and other than getting the clutch off/on
dont use that impact for anything else

[Johnny 5]

The sprocket on my reverse is a 16t, if you have a 11t you may be able to use the old chain if you have enough thread left on the chain adjuster bolt. Don't over tension it keep at least 1/2 inch of slack at the tightest position after checking it while rotating it.

If your chain is too short a cheap way is to get a master link repair kit. I have a 2 link on my red buggy so I could make a new chain from the left over chain from replacing the one on my wifes buggy.

[Johnny 5]

Here is the web for the chain repair kit.
http://www.buyatvpartsonline.com/top...s-p-10262.html

[x-bird]

behind the clutch, where the output shaft passes through the transmission side case is an oil seal it goes through.

Replace it with a new one.
Same with the bearings.
yes, it will cost you a little money, but it's better than having an oil leak into the cvt and/or having the old bearings fail with the added stress they'll be seeing and taking out the transmission.

Pretty sure that if you google "Carter Talon manual" you will find a free pdf. service manual file that has a good step-by-step on engine and trans rebuild.

this is a relatively simple job with not many parts to deal with.

[TheFauxFox]

Alright, so everything that was technical went well, except we don't have gasket sealant. -_-

So we tried it without the sealant and it leaked oil, so off to the auto parts store in a few mins. My goal tonight is to get the oil in the box and make sure all the technical stuff in the cvt is set. Tomorrow I'll just get the handle and cable hooked up. Then it's off to riding...sort of. I still need my ball joints...

At one point my dad and I were putting the final gears back in incorrectly LOL. We were putting one part in backwards, so it took us a minute or two, then we got it. Annoying thing was we could have grabbed some sealant while we were out earlier...we had to go out for a few washers to space the gearbox... Oh well. Can't change the past, now can we?

Will post updates later...


Oh! Forget to say while I had the muffler off I sanded some rust off the main body/the chome-ish plates and rustolium (high heat enamel) painted the muffler all black again. Before it was rust colored. LOL


^muffler before


^paint used


^hung out to dry. Looks better in person.


^got the cvt case open


^impact wrenched it and held the clutch with these tong things.


^got the clutch off


^new, longer shaft


^we got a little bit antsy and popped the box on without the chain

and from there we just loosened the chain tensioner, put on the chain, put the final casing back together without the gasket sealant...and then tried to fill it with gear oil. lol. Yea so off to the shop now...

[Johnny 5]

Did you replace the gasket? If not some high temp silicone will work. You can get a complete gasket kit for about 15.00 bucks that way you will have extra gaskets for the engine.
That is cool that your Dad is helping you.

How many teeth did your old sprocket have? Is the new sprocket 16T?

[TheFauxFox]

I did replace the gasket and used some gasket sealer (just now) around it with him. I'm very happy he's helping. We JUST got pretty much everything back together. He's leaving the house for the day tomorrow, so all I have to do is get the cvt cover back on and wire the cable to a handle and drill a new hole for the handle to mount. Funny thing was I asked him if I could use some silicone he had (he JUST modded out a smoker with some high-temp silicone to seal it off) and I was wondering if I could use it, but he insisted on gasket sealant. Eh... Might as well just get some sealant.

The new sprocket is 16t, and the old was 11t. I just loosened the chain tensioner A BUNCH and now I need to tighten it... The funny thing was, when I was spacing out the reverse box, I thought I needed to space my AXLE SPROCKET over. Since everyone was saying "space the sprocket" I didn't know that they were taking about the GEARBOX sprocket. So for about 5 mins my dad and I bickered about that. LOL.

Anyway, once I get it up and moving tomorrow I'll upload more pics/video.

[zman007007]

looking good fox the tong thing you are talking about I believe is called vise grips unless you were referring to another pic. zman

[TheFauxFox]

Originally Posted by zman007007

looking good fox the tong thing you are talking about I believe is called vise grips unless you were referring to another pic. zman

Yep. They are. They lock in place so that's nice

[TheFauxFox]

Now I'm officially freaking out. Ugh. I test started it up (with out muffler) and its making a plopping sound as I push the red button, and of course as it doesn't have a muffler when I tested it, that was dang loud. But is that plop plop plop sounds normal when starting with no muffler?

It also died in like 2 seconds after I started it. That's just the muffler, right? Too much airflow so it runs lean and dies?

[TheFauxFox]

Nvm. All is well now that I put the muffler on. I'm assuming it died because it ran too lean, and I'm not sure how this plopping noise is muffled, but it works for me, LOL. Well back to the reverse cable now...

[TheFauxFox]

A whole 10 minutes later and into my next pickle. I need to make a way to mount my handle, and of course I don't have ANY sheet metal to work with. For now, I'll look around the house for something I can salvage metal from, in the mean time, I'm at a halt and might have to run to Home Depot or something to pick up a little sheet

[Johnny 5]

The noise is normal and don't run your motor with out the muffler because it can damage the motor.

[TheFauxFox]

Alrighty. I took apart an old Razor E100 scooter I had laying around and cut up the battery bracket to the right size I need. I now see why everyone is saying A) Get a drill press, and B) Get a welder. Since I can't weld the bracket I'm now going to have to drill the through the floor frame tubing to mount it... Drilling through the stupid battery metal thing was hard enough with a hammer drill, now I've got this... LOL. I'll keep on going! haha

[zman007007]

if you are using a hammer drill, turn off the hammer part if possible. the hammer part is only for drilling such materials as concrete with masonry bits. Not for steel.

[TheFauxFox]

Interesting. I thought that the hammer just kinda helped it get through. Good to know. I used to hammer mode when I drilled through my little bracket, but I haven't gotten to drilling the kart yet. I'm taking a break as I have nothing left to add until I run back out to the store to get some nuts. Until then, I'm stuck.

[zman007007]

I could be wrong but I don"t think hammering on a steel cutting bit would be very good for it. The hammering is actually for breaking the rocks that are mixed in with concrete since the rocks are a lot harder usually than the concrete.

[TheFauxFox]

Yea, I agree... Well I made a little jig to hold the handle (sadly I can't bolt it straight to the frame) and since I kinda hacked apart that electric scooter, the metal sucks. I can't hold the handle, it will bend if I try to move the shifter handle, so I'm super pissed after working and cutting and measuring and drilling for a few hours today, I just wish I had a welder. And a drill press. That would be nice too. Yea so future note for anyone lurking this forum and wondering if they should join the addiction, factor in buying a welder and drill press with the price of your buggy, you're gonna need 'em!

Edit: And now that I look at pictures. I realize that I should be using hose clamps and not metal plates

Back to the store....

[2SlickNick]

Good to see you're making progress. Rome was not built in a day and neither is buggy fabrication.

[TheFauxFox]

Haha. That makes me feel better, I was kinda bummed that I wasn't gonna get it finished up this weekend, but oh well. Can't change what happened in the past, now can we? I have to get one my parents to take me to Home Depot tomorrow to get some thicker, beefier L-brackets to hold the shifter lever. After reviewing with my dad, we decided hose clamps aren't the way to go, and since I already drilled holes in the frame for my weak, aluminum brackets, I'll just use them for the iron ones we're getting.

[JERSEYDEVIL]

[TheFauxFox]

Originally Posted by JERSEYDEVIL

some may call that overkill...LOL. Looks...different. That's 4 sure!

[TheFauxFox]

Just bought a 48" piece of steel L-channel so I'll just use that as a bracket. Already got holes 'n everything.

Will post pictures of shifter mounted tomorrow and probably get the cable hooked up tomorrow evening-ish.

[TheFauxFox]

Got it mounted, took some pics, and then my phone promptly died. Battery just fully charged 4 hrs ago, barely used it, and boom. Dead. So now pics for now

Now I'm just working on the cable. IDK why people were saying 61" cable for a yerf dog, that's a ton! I'm using like 50"... Either way. When I get the cable on, should I make sure it snugly rests against the bottom of the shifter handle so when I shift it pulls it a lot, or should I leave some slack? I would think the first one, but IDK. LOL help pls.

[TheFauxFox]

So I seem to be extremely incapable of doing the simplest of things. Getting the damn cable on the shifter handle! Since my cable was purchased at a bike shop and only has ONE BALL ON ONE SIDE OF THE CABLE I have to make do for the other side. If I had a welder, I could just weld small fishing weight or something to the cable. But no. I don't aye aye aye...

Anyway. Tomorrow I'll have to find a small steel ball and just jb weld it on there, and then I'll crimp a ferrule on the end of the cable.

[zman007007]

even with a welder you wouldn"t be able to weld a fishing weight on there since the weights are made of lead.

[zman007007]

and as far as the steel cable welding, it it would burn in half before you could get the weld to stick probably.

[zman007007]

as far as the ball you need if you have some old ball bearings laying around you might be able to find the size you need in one of those, but jb weld ain"t gonna hold it.

[2SlickNick]

Sounds like one of these may help
http://www.bosunsupplies.com/NicopressSwage/

[zman007007]

he would have no room for this kind of fitting, it has to have a ball on the end. I have a brand new cable I had bought for the Helix I had and will see if he thinks it may work for him.

[TheFauxFox]

Originally Posted by 2SlickNick

Sounds like one of these may help
http://www.bosunsupplies.com/NicopressSwage/

I actually bought some of those from Ace Hardware. I Need more because I messed up 2/3 I bought. I need to get a ball to put BEHIND the cable end and I new ferrules (those things you linked) to cap off the end. The ball will stop the cable from slipping through the handle, and the ferrule to stop the ball from coming off.

[TheFauxFox]

After consulting my father we are going to use the ferrules to hold 2 cables together. He's gonna go to the bike shop tomorrow and grab a 3-5in section of cable with a ball end tomorrow and we're gonna ferrule the 2 cables together to hook to the lever.

[2SlickNick]

Originally Posted by TheFauxFox

After consulting my father we are going to use the ferrules to hold 2 cables together. He's gonna go to the bike shop tomorrow and grab a 3-5in section of cable with a ball end tomorrow and we're gonna ferrule the 2 cables together to hook to the lever.

Git-R-done.

[TheFauxFox]

Originally Posted by 2SlickNick

Git-R-done.

That'd be nice... I've been trying. It seems that jerry rigging everything takes much more effort than plug n play

[TheFauxFox]

Alright so I'm now ready to murder somebody....ok maybe not that but I'm super mad.

I got that cable with the ball on the end and I ferrule-d it together to the other cable in my gearbox and it turns out that the ferrule to too weak to join the cables . So now my options are...
A) Find some other way to join the cables
B) Spend $30 on one of those BD reverse cables (ughhhh) and re-mount my shifter based on the length of the cable (and I like where my shifter is now.)
C) Some other idea one of you give me

anyone?

[x-bird]

Originally Posted by TheFauxFox

That'd be nice... I've been trying. It seems that jerry rigging everything takes much more effort than plug n play

Buy the reverse cable. it should be longer than you need, so route it "creatively" to end up at your reverse handle.

[TheFauxFox]

x-bird, but that's the easy way!!!

I think that's what it's gonna boil down to, but I'll try to go a different route if I can... Buying that cable now means waiting for the ball joints as I barely have 110$. Oh well. I can wait.

[JERSEYDEVIL]

hate to say it but by the reverse cable and do it the right way. nothing will suck more than going riding, needing the reverse you went through all this trouble amd investment of time & money to install, and snapping an inferior cable to save $30.00.
when that happens the 30.00 bucks spent wouldve seemed worth $130.00.
lord knows, ive installed/sold enough "real" reverse cables at the shop that i can tell you that a couple of bicycle cables sewed together probably wont cut it. out of all the cables on a buggy the reverse cable gets the most stress.

[TheFauxFox]

The bike cable is plenty strong, the issue is the connection. I think we'll have to get it, but for $3 if a diff. connector will work, why not? I may be (slightly) cheap but I'm not stupid. If the connector we're looking at now will/possibly destroy the cable/not work right, I won't use it, and I'll drop the $40...

[JERSEYDEVIL]

Originally Posted by TheFauxFox

The bike cable is plenty strong, the issue is the connection. I think we'll have to get it, but for $3 if a diff. connector will work, why not? I may be (slightly) cheap but I'm not stupid. If the connector we're looking at now will/possibly destroy the cable/not work right, I won't use it, and I'll drop the $40...

try going to an auto parts store. in the help isle you might ind a package o assorted cable stops. they look like a little barrel w a hole that the cable runs through and a screw at the end. might work.

[TheFauxFox]

JD, That is almost exactly what my dad said he was going to HD for... HAHA. He said it was like a rectangular prism, but go figure. Same thing same concept. I'd just be worried that by running a screw/bolt through there it would ruin my cable, would it not?

[bear]

I have to agree with "JD" on this one! Ive had to replace my reverse cable a few times because they do take the most stress on the buggy! and I to have tried to "rig" it a few times in several different ways and it just never works for long!!

[TheFauxFox]

Originally Posted by bear

I have to agree with "JD" on this one! Ive had to replace my reverse cable a few times because they do take the most stress on the buggy! and I to have tried to "rig" it a few times in several different ways and it just never works for long!!

Yea that's how I think it'll end...but for now, I just wanna make sure everything back in the gearbox area works a-ok!

My parents know of my situation and since I've been doing abnormally well in school they're giving me $15 towards BD

So that's $15 off the cable I'm probably gonna have to buy... But until then...

[TheFauxFox]

these are the cable clamp's we're gonna try next (last actually...after this if it doesn't work we're getting a new cable)

[TheFauxFox]

Wow. So it turns out those things are too big (go figure...) so we went to home depot, bought an actual crimper and just a hand full of ferrules and are going to try those again (there is a supposed pattern we are supposed to thread the cables in, so we'll try that with a crimper) if it fails, we return the crimper and just get the cable.

[bear]

Wow I bet you got just about as much invested in time, gas, & money by now as you would if you just bought the cable to start with!!! but if we don't experiment with things we never discover do we!?

[TheFauxFox]

Originally Posted by bear

Wow I bet you got just about as much invested in time, gas, & money by now as you would if you just bought the cable to start with!!! but if we don't experiment with things we never discover do we!?

Actually all these ferrules and clamps (clamps were returned anyway...) only cost around $5! If the crimp won't work then its returned. But so far its about $15 in. But I do agree, I'd rather mess around with this stuff and get more experience working with what I have rather than just buying it. Again, as I have been saying, I think I'll have to buy it in the end, but I might as well try the easy (ish) way around!

[zman007007]

me at my age I fix it right the 1st time, I dont have time to goof around trying all other untested methods lol

[andrew1320]

Can't wait to see this finished! Once your done you should make a write-up on how to do it. Lets see if its cheaper than what BDX charges for a reverse kit.

[TheFauxFox]

I will definitely do a write up! I wanna help those behind me and make this as public as I can. As of now, total cost is $70 gearbox, $60 is cabling (I screwed up cable...it originally cost me $35 for a bike cable, I should have spent the $40 for a CORRECT cable, but I didn't cuz I thought the bike shop would be like $20...) $25 for the lever and about $10 in assorted nuts and bolts and mounting for the lever. I'll fully document this when I'm done.

[andrew1320]

Sweet. Looking forward to it!

[GX150]

Originally Posted by TheFauxFox

The new sprocket is 16t, and the old was 11t. I just loosened the chain tensioner A BUNCH and now I need to tighten it... The funny thing was, when I was spacing out the reverse box, I thought I needed to space my AXLE SPROCKET over. Since everyone was saying "space the sprocket" I didn't know that they were taking about the GEARBOX sprocket. So for about 5 mins my dad and I bickered about that. LOL.

Depending on the length of the output shaft and thickness of your reverse assembly, the drive sprocket may be shifted more to one side. When I swapped in a Tomberlin Punisher reverse assembly, I had to offset the axle sprocket to the left to line up the chain properly.

I did not like the taller gearing that resulted from the 16t drive sprocket change and sold that Spiderbox before my second one that had no reverse. These buggies were so light, I never had problems picking up either end if stuck somewhere. I preferred the low crawler gearing of the 13t drive with 39t axle sprockets, low gear set and torque cam.

[TheFauxFox]

Ah! That's interesting. Well as I've never driven with different gearing, I wouldn't know how it feels, but I know from experience with my scooters (still for sale btw... ) I prefer more torque. I'm intrigued how you also have a Carter/Trailmaster reverse box. Do you remember how taught the cable was when you put it in the shifter handle? I'm just curious if it was difficult to put into place, or just somewhat tight.

[GX150]

In forward, the cable should be just tight enough to get out the slack since the reverse assembly will run in forward even without a cable. Reverse is where all the tension is to enable the planetary gears.

I had better luck adjusting the shifter by connecting the cable to the shift fork and handle while the reverse assembly was off the shaft and the shifter was not attached to the frame. I adjusted the cable so the planetaries engaged with the shifter in reverse and tightened down the cable stops. I then moved the shifter to forward and mounted the reverse assembly and shifter. This way I knew proper tension was on the cable to get the reverse gears properly engaged.

And yes, I did use the correct reverse cable from a Tomberlin and the shifter was the correct one for my reverse assembly so it had the right throw once the cable was adjusted.

[TheFauxFox]

More issues. We FINALLY got the cable going good (made the ferrules work, we were using them wrong, plus we now have a PROPER crimper). And we shift and WHAT? Why is the cable loose again? THIS THING BROKE

It's not the best pic, but this is the elbow that sticks out away from the gearbox... The threads snapped. Twice. So I might need tom or someone with spare parts... LOL. There used to be 2-3 people at a time in my area with scrap Carter Talons and whatnot, now there is nobody....

This is how we linked the cables together

Make one loop, thread the other through and loop it again. And we used crimpers. Those helped a TON... Might be beneficial to not jerry-rig tools 100% of the time and actually get one anyway....
So if SYC or GoPowerSports wants to help out, that would be nice

Edit: Uhm. Just looked at pictures and it seems that part is supposed to be a part of the cable. So does this mean the inevitable happened? Cuz if I can get that part WITHOUT the cable I'll be fine.

[TheFauxFox]

Found my dream listing http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/mpo/4390409593.html

He's got 2 of these things laying around and he said he'd be willing to let IT ALL go for $100... so I'm happy. He has 2 engines (ones in pieces the other is whole) and tons of parts...ya know what just look at the ad

[x-bird]

Very common point for those to break. if you can undo the end you crimped on the inner cable, and the inner isn't all kinked up, you could make a stronger version of that tube with a threading die and brass tubing/elbows from the plumbing section of the hardware store.

[TheFauxFox]

Well, the guy with the ad has the part, with the cable inside, so my choices are cut that cable out and use mine (due to reasons that would take forever to type, it would work out a-ok) or I could just creatively wrap his cable. I think I'll do that...but we will see. I'd love to take him up on the $100 takes all deal, but we have a 10x25 slab of concrete under our porch where my kart is kept, and there's also a table and wood pile so there isn't any room for extra parts, plus my mom doesn't want the mess... So looks like I'll get that part and MAYBE some tires/shocks/belts/seats/anything else I damn-well please. Oops. Got a little carried away there

To be continued...

[TheFauxFox]

Picked up the elbow. It's a bit smaller, but it should work fine... Although his physical cable is missing from everything, so I think I still have to use my cable and his elbow. Until I get more money, though, I can't pick up tires/shocks... But eventually....

[TheFauxFox]

Still wondering if that thread size is the same...that's all that matters. Any input from anyone here?

[bear]

Can't you "test" fit it?

[TheFauxFox]

Well obviously yes. I'm doing that a little later today... I was just curious if anyone had input before I did it. Either way I'll make it work

[TheFauxFox]

GRRR STILL NOT WORKING

At least the arm didn't break anyway we also noticed that the two halves of the gearbox were misaligned, so we spaced off the holding arm (it was a 2 piece design) and its now aligned...tried again and still didn't shift, although I think it fixed a lot of friction issues and helped with torque..anyway still doesn't work. SO IDK whats up but I'm kinda a little bit very frustrated.

The cable is super tight, although as I'm using my cable I can't use any adjustment method that the regular ones use. Go figure... Any ideas? It also seems that when the kart is running and we use vice grips to manually pull out the cylinder with the cable in it, it WILL NOT budge. So wondering if the gears are locking?

[TheFauxFox]

If someone would like to post a video with a quick walk around of their gearbox and it in action that would be GREATLY appreciated. I know nothing its binding because it works a-ok in foreword, although it is stuck that way. i'm just baffled as to why the part won't move when the engine is running. Even when stopped?

[TheFauxFox]

GOT IT TO WORK! Manually pulled the cable out and revved it slightly and the engine revved for a sec, then the tires squealed and it jerked backwards into reverse. The person pulling the cable said they pulled it all the way out, and as I revved it a little, it then popped back a little further, and worked. Reminds me of jmans issues with blipping it into gear... And ours isn't perfectly straight aligned either. At least we know the gearbox works!

By aligned i mean the two halves of the gearbox btw... I still don't know whats up with the issue with it pulling out like that and then the sudden pent up torque.... And yes, I think I will buy that PROPER cable. I had a strong feeling, but figured I'd give other ways a shot. You simply cannot tension it based on cable length alone, you need the various bits and pieces that go with it, and I don't have those. Overall cost will still be below 175$ but I'm kinda annoyed at all the jerry rigging and hard work, but glad for the experience it gave me...

[TheFauxFox]

AND NOW THE BD KIT IS BACK DOWN TO 199!!!! SON OF A GUN! I would have gotten it at that price, but not 249 or 299... oh well

[TheFauxFox]

So...anyone have input here? I'm completely in the dark, and I loctite'd the end nut onto the reverse kit because I was "supposed" to do that so I can't get that off (unless someone has a magic formula) Turns out thats the last step. Whoops.

[bear]

Anytime I engage my external reverse it take a little blip of the throttle to get it to "set" into reverse. As for the locktite nut if you have access to some xylene or acetone I'd try that! if not you can try soaking the nut with nail polish remover for awhile that is basically acetone!

[TheFauxFox]

Thanks, bear! And do you get a sudden burst of torque? When we did it the engine revved slightly, almost like it was in a neutral gear and then SQUEEL and it kinda took off backwards. I would have never been able to do that before with the fixed sprocket! Anyway it works. And thanks for the tip on removing it. Turns out I actually used JB Weld so I think this might be a bit different... oh here we go I shouldn't HAVE to take it off, but just in case...

Edit: Just read JB Weld can be removed by filing/grinding (not applicable for me) or high heat (above 600 degrees f) So my dad just got a propane torch recently...... Would I damage the gearbox if I used it at that heat? I'm just afraid it might warp the metal... however the melting point of steel IS around 2500 degrees f...

[x-bird]

you'll likely just end up melting the grease out with a big drippy, smoky mess on the floor and maybe melting the big flat seal on the case half.

[TheFauxFox]

That's what I was worried about. K so no melting. I just hope I won't have to take it off....

[bear]

As for the reverse, does it seem as if maybe your throttle is hanging up a little? there is a slight hesitation between the forward to reverse engaging as the mechanism passes from one gear to the next and then a sudden lurch into reverse, but nothing profound! As for the JB welded nut if you can get at it with a small "coping" saw with a fine metal or even diamond edge blade you can cut around where you "puttied" in the JB between the nut and the casing and possibly get it to break free!?