Spiderbox cheap bleeder and caliper question - BuggyMasters.Com - An On Line Mini Buggy Forum and Go Kart Forum

satoys · #1 01-02-2012, 08:45 PM

I got a spiderbox about a month ago, was really trashed out, but was cheap. Took it to the carwash, cleaned it up, and found out it was in good shape. I've been fixing it up, getting everything working, and have it running now, but having brake problems.
Adjusted the lever on the master cylinder, found the rubber boot ruptured, so got a new master cylinder, still not working. Been reading in several places, seems bleeding is the way to go, but the bleeder pumps from places like HF only last once or so, and the others are too expensive. Keep looking and reading, and tried this solution, a 60cc vet syringe, 1.50$ ea. http://www.tractorsupply.com/produce...k-of-2-1019805
Added 2" of 3/16 clear poly line, works great ! However breaks now stopping in about 30 feet (better than before).
So now looking at the caliper, some of the rubber boots are old, ruptured, but don't seem to hold fluid, so don't think that is the problem. Took the caliper apart, looked dirty inside, cleaned it out. The pistons look dirty and could be stuck, but do not see how to get them out. Other than replacing pads, can anything else be done to rebuild the caliper, or is the solution just to buy a new one?

metalstudman1 · #2 01-03-2012, 01:16 AM

I replaced our master cylinder twice and still couldn't get "good brakes". I replaced the master and caliper with a motorcyle one and now it locks up the brakes- I'm convinced that the stock equipment just isn't enough after just a little wear & tear. The simplest way to bleed is to take the master, brake line & caliper to the bench all assembled and let the caliper hang to the floor- only takes about 20 pumps to replace all the fluid in the system.

x-bird · #3 01-03-2012, 08:10 AM

Metal, did you bench bleed the masters? Just wondering if it's the same deal as with a car type.

satoys · #4 01-03-2012, 09:33 AM

Metalman, since I'm guessing the answer is to replace the caliper (50$) after replacing the master (30$) I should look into spending the 50$ plus on a motorcycle brake system ? Have you or anyone found a good system that does not require lots of mods? Also, other than safety, is there a need to replace the metal guard?

metalstudman1 · #5 01-03-2012, 11:27 AM

x-bird- I took the whole system off intact and bled it.It was very simple- I think it was only 4 or 5 bolts.
satoys- I was only informing you that to get really good stopping I had to replace the stock system. I was moving the brake caliper to the other side of the swingarm so it wasn't a major under-taking. I have a master (rear/foot pedal) from a Yamaha 600 and caliper and did have to make a new bracket for the caliper. I bought all these used parts for about $30. Since our Spiderbox hasn't had stock parts in a while- what metal guard are you asking about?

satoys · #6 01-03-2012, 12:15 PM

metalman, ahh, ok, had not thought about moving the caliper as well, have to look at that. I'm not that good at making parts, but can find and modify parts, once I see a possibility... this picture is the metal guard I was referring to:

metalstudman1 · #7 01-03-2012, 12:33 PM

I think this plate was more for keeping debris off the motor, the safety aspect would be starting a fire from a hot engine when driving over combustibles more than for personal safety.
The whole reason for bleeding the system off the buggy was that all the bends in the line trapped air, also the stock rubber brake lines expand a lot compromising the bleeding process.

satoys · #8 01-03-2012, 07:22 PM

Thanks MSM1, I've learned a lot over the last month or so lurking and reading your posts... I got to thinking after reading your response about taking the whole brake assembly to the bench to bleed, and tried a modified version this afternoon. I took the caliper off, laid it on the ground, and sure enough got a few more bubbles of air out. While it was off, but still connected, I pumped the brakes and could see 1/64 movement, but at least it was moving. Could actually see a shiny area on the rotor ! Turns out the brake pedal and plunger travel is deceiving, since the actual movement at the caliper is minor. So remembering one of your other posts about adjustment, started trying to find where to adjust. Finally found the right location, loosened the "acorn" nut, turned the "notched" stud several turns, and I can now stop in 10 feet instead of 30 - progress ! Thanks for all your ideas... and you may of just saved me 50$ on a new caliper !

Picture below of what I adjusted with the 9mm wrench.

Turns out this adjusted nothing... I went back out today in the sunlight took it apart again, and found what I thought I was adjusting was just the flat part of the stud that locks it into the mounting bracket. Still cleaning, looking, but can't find any way to adjust. Took some more pictures below to show it torn down.

metalstudman1 · #9 01-04-2012, 12:15 AM

Glad you got some brakes

AceFab · #10 01-05-2012, 11:41 PM

Brakes are good, that means you can go faster now!

Sounds like you are making some progress plus you are gaining some valuable knowledge along the way.

I agree with metalstudman, the stock brake systems a barely adequate sometimes. I have been collecting atv brake components when I can score a decent deal.

metalstudman1 · #11 01-06-2012, 12:23 AM

So did you ever adjust the brakes at the master cylinder plunger?

satoys · #12 01-06-2012, 09:43 AM

AceFab- yes, learning a lot... but i think that's why I get so much enjoyment out of "fixin" problems.
I had put on a new master cylinder, adjusted out to the max, nut only goes half way up to cylinder bottom when depressed. (picture below).
I can drive now, still can't stop like I'd like though. Now debating the motorcycle brake solution, new caliper, or the front brake add on. Budget is making the decision go slow.
The minimal travel of the caliper pistons (1/8") is making me think the caliper is sticking from sitting for years. Sprayed all I can find in there to loosen it. Just glad I did not spend 20$ on a bleeder !

AceFab · #13 01-06-2012, 10:14 AM

satoys- You are probably right about the brakes being sticky from years of not being used. They may free up as you use them more too. If you can find a deal on a good used motorcycle or atv brake set-up that would be a great upgrade. You can find racing kart rear brake set-ups with rear caliper and matching master cylinder on ebay and local classifieds sometimes and those work nicely as well.

x-bird · #14 01-06-2012, 10:27 AM

if you can pop the pistons out of the caliper, might be a good idea to check the-rings and the bore to make sure there isn't a slight rust ring in the bore from sitting. a little bit of silicone lube on the o-rings would probably help as well. I just got the same caliper and master, going to go through it all before install.

satoys · #15 01-06-2012, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-bird

if you can pop the pistons out of the caliper, might be a good idea to check the-rings and the bore to make sure there isn't a slight rust ring in the bore from sitting. a little bit of silicone lube on the o-rings would probably help as well. I just got the same caliper and master, going to go through it all before install.

Can't figure how to get them out... caliper seems to be pressed together, so can't open it to get behind it, tried turning the piston with channel lock pliers, they won't budge (but not trying too hard so I don't damage them)

Any secrets to get them out ?

x-bird · #16 01-06-2012, 10:40 PM

compressed air is what i use for redoing automotive calipers. haven't sat down to look at this one yet--just got it the other day. remove the brake pads and banjo fitting, close the bleeder if it isn't, wrap a towel several times around the caliper and give it a shot with an air gun that has a rubber end so you can seal it against the brake line hole. do not have your fingers anywhere near the area of the piston/pads and make sure it's not pointing at something you value ... just in case ..

satoys · #17 01-07-2012, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-bird

compressed air is what i use for redoing automotive calipers. haven't sat down to look at this one yet--just got it the other day. remove the brake pads and banjo fitting, close the bleeder if it isn't, wrap a towel several times around the caliper and give it a shot with an air gun that has a rubber end so you can seal it against the brake line hole. do not have your fingers anywhere near the area of the piston/pads and make sure it's not pointing at something you value ... just in case ..

x-bird ! thanks !!! worked (finally) after using PB Blaster over and over and twisting the pistons back and forth, finally got it out. One thing I learned in the process today, is to open the bleeder valve for the first shot of air, get any remaining brake fluid out, then close it. Also it took a long blast of air to finally get the piston out, one still stuck. And yes, the one that finally came out went 20+ feet when it blew !!!!
There are 2 rubber o-rings inside, will start playing with those to see if I can replace them.
From the picture below, the piston should have no reason not to lock the brakes up, you can see it will go all the way to the other side. btw - the hole inside the piston chamber is VERY small, I can see why you have to keep the fluid VERY clean.

First picture is the caliper with the pistons as far as the master cylinder could push them, Second picture is after blowing them out with air.

x-bird · #18 01-07-2012, 08:14 PM

if one is still stuck, do your clean up work on the first, give the o-rings a very light coating of silicone lube (you don't want a clump plugging things up), reinstall it and "lock" it into the caliper with a piece of wood. Then try and blow the second one out.

satoys · #19 01-07-2012, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-bird

if one is still stuck, do your clean up work on the first, give the o-rings a very light coating of silicone lube (you don't want a clump plugging things up), reinstall it and "lock" it into the caliper with a piece of wood. Then try and blow the second one out.

ok, will do... the outer O ring was bad, the corrosion was between the O rings. Any idea best place to get the O rings? Auto parts store ?

metalstudman1 · #20 01-08-2012, 01:09 AM

Northern tools,Tractor supply, Napa are other places that sell various sizes other than an auto parts, as they always need a make & model,

satoys · #21 01-08-2012, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metalstudman1

Northern tools,Tractor supply, Napa are other places that sell various sizes other than an auto parts, as they always need a make & model,

Good point ! headed to Tractor Supply today anyway, will take one with me and match it up

satoys · #22 01-17-2012, 11:50 AM

still looking for the washers/o-rings, they are flat, all I can find are round ones... so I bit the bullet and bought a new caliper - amazing 1 I did x-birds air test, they move sooooo easy when not corroded. Stopping much better now.

satoys · #23 01-17-2012, 11:58 AM

Went ahead a took the master cylinder apart, one snap ring, easy to do. The rubber boot I thought was bad was only a dust boot.... It was corroded inside also at the rubber seals. Think it is still good however, think most of the problems were the air bubbles and caliper seized.

T3beatz · #24 02-08-2012, 06:22 PM

My little bro and I were having this problem with his spiderbox... we tried everything to get his breaks to work.

we finally go them working and now they will lock up his back wheels (this is all the stock stuff).

Before we attached the line back onto the caliper we filled it (the caliper) with break fluid. Also for some reason that break line likes to be in a certain positon when screwed onto the caliper. Just by doing that his breaking improved, then he adjusted the screws at the pedal so that he was getting full movement at the Master cylinder. After that his break was good as new.

x-bird · #25 02-08-2012, 07:39 PM

good to hear ... I have to teach my little one to ease into the pedal ...she's like her mother ... last few seconds and "wham". she's already giggling at leaving skid marks on the driveway ... wait til i tell her tires and gas come from her piggy bank.

satoys · #26 02-08-2012, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3beatz

My little bro and I were having this problem with his spiderbox... we tried everything to get his breaks to work.

we finally go them working and now they will lock up his back wheels (this is all the stock stuff).

Before we attached the line back onto the caliper we filled it (the caliper) with break fluid. Also for some reason that break line likes to be in a certain positon when screwed onto the caliper. Just by doing that his breaking improved, then he adjusted the screws at the pedal so that he was getting full movement at the Master cylinder. After that his break was good as new.

if it was not for the great people on this forum mine would have never worked either !

Mrlanc · #27 04-18-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satoys

Went ahead a took the master cylinder apart, one snap ring, easy to do. The rubber boot I thought was bad was only a dust boot.... It was corroded inside also at the rubber seals. Think it is still good however, think most of the problems were the air bubbles and caliper seized.

I've been trying to get my master cylinder apart like in your pic. Can't seem to get the plunger out. What am I missing?

satoys · #28 04-22-2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrlanc

I've been trying to get my master cylinder apart like in your pic. Can't seem to get the plunger out. What am I missing?

I just pulled the one "c" ring (middle of picture)at the bottom off, but did notice the ends inside were corroded.

To be honest, I don't think it was the master cylinder, it was the caliper all along. I could not find anything to "fix" in the master. Ended up buying a new master cylinder and did not fix the problem. Got a new caliper, had brakes !